Cindy Fuller wrote:

In article ,
"barry" wrote:


Our Costco sells the All Trumps flour and I believe that I have seen it at
Sam's Club also.


I sure wish my Costco sold it. All I can find at our Costco, Hanover, NJ,
is a "Bread flour" that has a gluten/protein of 10-11%.



That's about the level of protein that the regular King Arthur flour
has. KA sells a Sir Lancelot bread flour that's over 14% gluten, and
they recommend using a heavy duty mixer to knead it so the full gluten
potential is developed.

Cindy

Cindy,

Take a short drive to Whole Foods. WheatMontana is higher protein level
than Sir L. AND, it is priced much, much lower, too.
--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener

Mike Avery wrote:

On 8 Nov 2003 at 16:30, Cindy Fuller wrote:


In article ,
"H. W. Hans Kuntze" wrote:


But in other parts of the country, they forget to boil the bagels
before baking too.



It's not forgetting, Hans, they don't know to do it. We walked into a
bagel place here in Seattle a few months ago and noticed the bagels
looked a little puffy. When we asked the kid behind the counter
whether the bagels were boiled before baking he looked at us as if we
were from Mars.


No, it's worse than that. They don't want to boil the bagels. Many
people don't like things they have to chew, to struggle to eat. The
found that if they don't boil the bagels, they rise up more, they are
lighter, and they aren't chewy.

Of course, at this point the also aren't really bagels. At least, not
authentic bagels. But they may be more popular bagels.

Mike

Well, there is another reason that I can fathom. The "real" bagels
provide a slicing problem. Too, hard and too likely to cut their palms.
They should go back to eating doughnuts and Costco sized muffins.

--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener

Take a short drive to Whole Foods. WheatMontana is higher protein level
than Sir L. AND, it is priced much, much lower, too.
--
Alan

I've been hounding our local Whole Foods (Madison, NJ) to get the Wheat
Montana set-up, but no luck so far. To get WM, I have to hit Wegman's in
Bridgewater, which is about 30 miles away. (30 miles may not sound like
much, but in NJ traffic, it's a lifetime. g)

Barry

"Mike Avery" writes:

From: "Mike Avery"
To:
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 11:08:11 -0700
Subject: flour choice for bagels?
Newsgroups: rec.food.baking

On 8 Nov 2003 at 16:30, Cindy Fuller wrote:

"H. W. Hans Kuntze" wrote:

But in other parts of the country, they forget to boil the bagels
before baking too.

It's not forgetting, Hans, they don't know to do it. We walked into a
bagel place here in Seattle a few months ago and noticed the bagels
looked a little puffy. When we asked the kid behind the counter
whether the bagels were boiled before baking he looked at us as if we
were from Mars.

No, it's worse than that. They don't want to boil the bagels. Many
people don't like things they have to chew, to struggle to eat. The
found that if they don't boil the bagels, they rise up more, they are
lighter, and they aren't chewy.

Of course, at this point the also aren't really bagels. At least, not
authentic bagels. But they may be more popular bagels.

Unfortunately, this is true. Bread-like bagels have become part of the
American scene. Fifteen years ago, if you were not in a major urban
area, you might -- if you were lucky -- find some pre-packaged frozen
bagels at the supermarket. Today, the product is ubiquitous and has
become something of a sandwich bun with a hole in the middle.

The national chains and franchises have perfected the bready bagel and
the average consumer has been fooled into believing that this is what
a bagel should feel like. I have nothing against this mass-market
product but, just because it has a hole in the middle, does not make
it a bagel.

I recall bagels from my childhood which were so chewy that you could
hardly bite them. And they would go stale very, very fast because
they were made without shortening or preservatives.

When my son was a baby, he used to go with me to the House of Bagels
in San Francisco and the woman behind the counter would always give
him a tiny "cocktail bagel" to teethe on.

(BTW, vis-a-vis that other thread about bakery naming, the House of
Bagels' name wasn't that unusual, but it had a slogan on its sign:
"When is a seagull not a seagull... When it's a bay gull!" Oy!)

As my son got older, he used to enjoy peering in through the side
door and watching the bakers taking trays of uncooked bagels from
racks where they had been rising and sliding the bagels into vats
of boiling water. They'd rise to the surface of the water, be
lifted out with a skimmer, and placed on baking sheets to go into
the ovens.

Over the years, I've seen many gadgets for slicing bagels. My
grandmother had this plastic thing which could be screwed down
to a counter or bread board -- but more likely was just kept in
a kitchen drawer. It opened like a vertical clamshell, the bagel
was held inside by pressing on the sides of the clamshell, and
a sharp kitchen knife was used to cut the bagel in half.

New materials technology has blessed humankind with today's simple
and functional "Bagel Biter" which uses structural plastics and
a stiff coated-steel scalloped edge blade to guillotine bagels
in a single motion. http://www.larien.com/biter.html

I've only made bagels on a couple of occassions. It's hard to
justify the effort when one lives close to a first-class
commerical bagel bakery (which I do here in the Boston area.)
I recall, however, that adding malt to the boiling water was
important for developing an authentic bagel crust. And, I had
good luck with bread flour to which some additional gluten
had been added.

And, Mike, we're frequent visitors to Colorado and I recall
buying commercial packages of bagels from the Rocky Mountain
Bagel Company at Costco in Denver a couple of years ago -- and
thinking that these ranked among the best commercial bagels. I
think they were properly made with malted water. Unfortunately,
last time I was in Denver, I could not find these and I suspect
that the baking company has not survived.

Finally, just for fun, check out the Boston bagel FAQ at:
http://www.boston-online.com/bagels.html

Cheers,
The Old Bear

The Old Bear wrote:

[...]

When my son was a baby, he used to go with me to the House of Bagels=20
in San Francisco and the woman behind the counter would always give=20
him a tiny "cocktail bagel" to teethe on.

(BTW, vis-a-vis that other thread about bakery naming, the House of=20
Bagels' name wasn't that unusual, but it had a slogan on its sign:=20
"When is a seagull not a seagull... When it's a bay gull!" Oy!)

Yup Bear, quite good, at least 8 years ago and so were the Schmiers.

AFAIR they were in the vicinity of Polk & Geary up towards California=20
and used to be a regular treat in our office when I ran a training=20
program for UAW out of the old Jack Tar, then Cathedral Hill Hotel, now=20
something else, on Van Ness & Geary.

I don't think that any city can beat SF, as far as the food is=20
concerned. Too bad I moved into this forsaken hellhole.
All you have to do is check the bread isles in the Supermarkets and=20
count the number of junkfood places if you want to know what people eat=20
in any given city.

--=20
Sincerly,

C=3D=A6-)=A7 H. W. Hans Kuntze, CMC, S.g.K. (_o_)
http://www.cmcchef.com ,
"Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it Happened"
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/=20

barry wrote:
Take a short drive to Whole Foods. WheatMontana is higher protein level
than Sir L. AND, it is priced much, much lower, too.
--
Alan


I've been hounding our local Whole Foods (Madison, NJ) to get the Wheat
Montana set-up, but no luck so far. To get WM, I have to hit Wegman's in
Bridgewater, which is about 30 miles away. (30 miles may not sound like
much, but in NJ traffic, it's a lifetime. g)

Barry


Oh yeah, another reason why I gave up on living in Garbage State more
than 30 years ago. ( I was raised in Plainfield.)

--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener

The Old Bear wrote:



Unfortunately, this is true. Bread-like bagels have become part of the
American scene. Fifteen years ago, if you were not in a major urban
area, you might -- if you were lucky -- find some pre-packaged frozen
bagels at the supermarket. Today, the product is ubiquitous and has
become something of a sandwich bun with a hole in the middle.

The national chains and franchises have perfected the bready bagel and
the average consumer has been fooled into believing that this is what
a bagel should feel like. I have nothing against this mass-market
product but, just because it has a hole in the middle, does not make
it a bagel.

I recall bagels from my childhood which were so chewy that you could
hardly bite them. And they would go stale very, very fast because
they were made without shortening or preservatives.

When my son was a baby, he used to go with me to the House of Bagels
in San Francisco and the woman behind the counter would always give
him a tiny "cocktail bagel" to teethe on.

(BTW, vis-a-vis that other thread about bakery naming, the House of
Bagels' name wasn't that unusual, but it had a slogan on its sign:
"When is a seagull not a seagull... When it's a bay gull!" Oy!)

As my son got older, he used to enjoy peering in through the side
door and watching the bakers taking trays of uncooked bagels from
racks where they had been rising and sliding the bagels into vats
of boiling water. They'd rise to the surface of the water, be
lifted out with a skimmer, and placed on baking sheets to go into
the ovens.

Over the years, I've seen many gadgets for slicing bagels. My
grandmother had this plastic thing which could be screwed down
to a counter or bread board -- but more likely was just kept in
a kitchen drawer. It opened like a vertical clamshell, the bagel
was held inside by pressing on the sides of the clamshell, and
a sharp kitchen knife was used to cut the bagel in half.

New materials technology has blessed humankind with today's simple
and functional "Bagel Biter" which uses structural plastics and
a stiff coated-steel scalloped edge blade to guillotine bagels
in a single motion. http://www.larien.com/biter.html

I've only made bagels on a couple of occassions. It's hard to
justify the effort when one lives close to a first-class
commerical bagel bakery (which I do here in the Boston area.)
I recall, however, that adding malt to the boiling water was
important for developing an authentic bagel crust. And, I had
good luck with bread flour to which some additional gluten
had been added.

And, Mike, we're frequent visitors to Colorado and I recall
buying commercial packages of bagels from the Rocky Mountain
Bagel Company at Costco in Denver a couple of years ago -- and
thinking that these ranked among the best commercial bagels. I
think they were properly made with malted water. Unfortunately,
last time I was in Denver, I could not find these and I suspect
that the baking company has not survived.

Finally, just for fun, check out the Boston bagel FAQ at:
http://www.boston-online.com/bagels.html

Cheers,
The Old Bear

American business has a knack of coming up with trendy breakfast foods
to mass produce. First it was doughnuts. Then it was muffins. Then
bagels and now back to doughnuts again.

For the most part, bagels still remain an ethnic based food. Just a fact
of life.

For those trying to understand what constitutes a good bagel, I should
point out that there is one exception to the boil all bagel rule. In my
youth, misspent and otherwise, egg bagels were not normally first
boiled. This includes quite a few good spots in Jersey, Brooklyn and
Manhattan.

--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener

Third or fourth patent flour produced in split run milling when they take
top patent (all purpose). It is higher in gluten content. Also the amount
of diastatic malt flour added for enzyme activity. Check the falling
number.

"Josh Meyer" wrote in message
om...
I'm trying to figure out why NYC bagels are so much better than those
in other parts of the country. Anyone have a suggestion about what
kind of flour to use?

Josh

"Mike Avery" writes:

From: "Mike Avery"
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 11:08:11 -0700
subject: flour choice for bagels?
Newsgroups: rec.food.baking

On 8 Nov 2003 at 16:30, Cindy Fuller wrote:

H. W. Hans Kuntze wrote:

But in other parts of the country, they forget to boil the bagels
before baking too.

It's not forgetting, Hans, they don't know to do it. We walked into a
bagel place here in Seattle a few months ago and noticed the bagels
looked a little puffy. When we asked the kid behind the counter
whether the bagels were boiled before baking he looked at us as if we
were from Mars.

No, it's worse than that. They don't want to boil the bagels. Many
people don't like things they have to chew, to struggle to eat. The
found that if they don't boil the bagels, they rise up more, they are
lighter, and they aren't chewy.

Of course, at this point the also aren't really bagels. At least, not
authentic bagels. But they may be more popular bagels.


In a response to Mike's posting (above), I previously responded
in rec.food.baking:

} Newsgroups: rec.food.baking
} From: (The Old Bear)
} Subject: flour choice for bagels?
} Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 17:57:18 -0500
}
} "Mike Avery" writes:
}
} No, it's worse than that. They don't want to boil the bagels. Many
} people don't like things they have to chew, to struggle to eat. The
} found that if they don't boil the bagels, they rise up more, they are
} lighter, and they aren't chewy.
} . . .
} And, Mike, we're frequent visitors to Colorado and I recall
} buying commercial packages of bagels from the Rocky Mountain
} Bagel Company at Costco in Denver a couple of years ago -- and
} thinking that these ranked among the best commercial bagels. I
} think they were properly made with malted water. Unfortunately,
} last time I was in Denver, I could not find these and I suspect
} that the baking company has not survived.

Well, we just returned from the Thanksgiving holiday in Denver and
discovered that the local Costco is now making their own big, puffy,
bready, in-store baked bagels -- but also had bags of small "cocktail
bagels" made by the Rocky Mtn. Bagel Factory -- which is the trade
name use by Ace Baking Company of Denver.

I brought too bags of these little bagels back to the east coast
with me.

Their crust not quite as hard as one might like, but they're reasonably
chewy and have excellent flavor. The ingredients listed on the package
a

High gluten flour, water, sugar, salt, malted barley flour,
calcium propiontat, yeast, mono-diglycerides, wheat gluten,
ascorbic acid, calcium sulfate, dextrose, enzyme, yellow
corn meal.

Note the use of high-gluten flour *and* added gluten. Also the malted
barley (which is both food for the yeast and adds to the flavor). The
ascorbic acid also helps the yeast and the corn meal is probably used
to keep the bagels from sticking to the baking equipment. (The
glycerides are for texture and moisture; the calcium proprionate
discourages spoilage due to mold growing on the finished product; the
enzyme is a dough conditioner.)

I checked the web and discovered that Ace Baking in Denver was acquired
in March of last year by Harlan Bakers of Indianapolis, Indiana. (See:
http://www.harlanbakeries.com/march2002.htm ) Harlan is a high-speed
manufacturer of "authentic bagels and pita bread" and manufactures
a number of wholesale products including par baked and raw dough bagels.
Harlan manufactures for its own retail labels and for the Einstein/Noah
Bagel chains and McDonalds.

I'm not sure how much the Rocky Mountain Bagel Factory product
formulation is unique to Ace Baking in Denver. In my opinion, it is
different than the Einstein product. (I confess to never having
tried the bagels at McDonalds and to avoiding the packages of frozen
bagels sold at supermarkets.)

Harlan recognizes that the chewy "New York bagel" is a different beast
than the bread-like soft bagel. Each occupies a different niche in the
marketplace. See: http://www.harlanbakeries.com/bagels_ny.htm and
http://www.harlanbakeries.com/bagels_soft.htm

Next time I am in Denver, I may try to visit the Ace Baking facility.
I'd be curious how they've modified their recipe and process for baking
at Denver's 5280 foot (1610 meters) altitude.

Cheers,
The Old Bear