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  #41 (permalink)   Report Post  
Joseph Michael Bay
 
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"David Downie" > writes:


>"Peter Dy" > wrote in message
...


>> And yet you've said several times that if it were "traditional," then
>> you'd use it. Well, it *is* traditional!


>From what I've read it was extracted from seaweed by japanese eggheads in
>1908. Nothing traditional about that. It's not a traditional part of thai
>cooking from what I tell. It plays no part.


Fish sauce. There are maybe three or four Thai dishes that don't
have fish sauce in them (okay, maybe more). Nam pla has more naturally
occurring glutamate than soy sauce or oyster sauce (both of which, by
the way, have a lot).

>> And I've said more than once that there are, indeed, great oyster sauces
>> out there without MSG. So, "Get yourself to an Asian store!!" is all I
>> can say at this point..


>Yes I will look for it next time I'm there.


There are quite certainly oyster sauces without *added* MSG, but
I think it's unlikely that there's a good oyster sauce with *no* MSG.


--
Chimes peal joy. Bah. Joseph Michael Bay
Icy colon barge Cancer Biology
Frosty divine Saturn Stanford University
www.stanford.edu/~jmbay/ fhqwhgadshgnsdhjsdbkhsdabkfabkveybvf
  #42 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bigbazza
 
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"Bubbabob" > wrote in message
. 3.30...
> "James Silverton" > wrote:
>
>
>>
>> AFAIK, there is no really creditable information that small quantities
>> of MSG are harmful, However, I'm prejudiced since it is a mainstay for
>> the low or no fat cooking that I go in for! Non-fat cream cheese does
>> not really come up to regular cream cheese on bagels but a small
>> amount of MSG helps!
>>
>>

>
> It makes my mouth taste like metal for about 4 hours after eating it.


Well...You should be one of those folk who steers away from it !

--
Bigbazza(Barry)..Oz


  #43 (permalink)   Report Post  
Member
 
Location: manchester
Posts: 1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Dy
"David Downie" wrote in message
...

"Peter Dy"
wrote in message
t...
I found out my oyster sauce has MSG in it. Does everyone use MSG when
they cook with oyster sauce?



They do if there's MSG in it!

Look for a brand that says "Oyster Flavored Sauce" "Product of
Kwangtung." On the back label, it says "Sa Cheng Oyster Flavored Sauce."
No MSG. I think it's a very good oyster sauce.


ok I'll have a look. It's called "Flavouring 261" or something.



Hmmm. I've never heard of it being called "Flavoring 261." Do you have a
link for that?

I just looked at my bottle again, and it didn't say 261 on it (sometimes the
Chinese label gives more info than the English, but not in this case.)

I notice you spell "flavoring" funny, so maybe I should mention that the
oyster sauce without MSG I got was in the States. Though it's obviously
from Guangzhou. Oh--I see now that you're from Australia! Go to lots of
different stores, and I'm sure you'll find a brand that doesn't have MSG.
Look for PRC brands--with primitive-looking labels--as opposed to brands
from Hong Kong that look slick and modern.


What's the latest on MSG anyway.



I haven't heard of anything new. Same old, same old. Do a search of
this group on Google, and you'll find plenty of flame-wars about MSG, if
you're interested in that.


Not really. I'm no expert, but I'd prefer my cooking to be natural,
whatver that means. I suppose if MSG was a sauce 1000 years old I'd be
putting it in by the tablespoon.



OK. But MSG is indeed a lot older than one might think. I don't like
getting into arguments about it though...

Good luck in your search!

Peter
there was an article in the times this weekend - cant remember much about it apart from the fact that it isnt as bad as everyone thinks
  #44 (permalink)   Report Post  
James Silverton
 
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chillijam wrote:
> Peter Dy Wrote:
>> "David Downie" wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Snipped<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<> >

>> OK. But MSG is indeed a lot older than one might think. I don't
>> like getting into arguments about it though...
>>
>> Good luck in your search!
>>
>> Peter

>
> there was an article in the times this weekend - cant remember much
> about it apart from the fact that it isnt as bad as everyone thinks


As I have said, I am in the pro-MSG camp but the subject is a bit more
complicated than a lot of proponents realize. Glutamic acid (and the
various glutamates) is optically active and that means that there are
D- and L- forms which are mirror images of each other. That does *not*
mean identical as the authors of computer backup programs seem to
think (g) and, in fact, the two forms are related as in left and right
hands (apologies to those who know all about it!)

The natural glutamates, as available in tomatoes and Japanese Kombu
seaweed for example, are the natural L-form but the sellers of MSG
don't usually mention that theirs may contain an unspecified amount of
the unnatural D-form. I have not seen any reports of how much and it
may be small if the raw materials are natural.

I don't think there is evidence that L-glutamate is harmful but the
same is not necessarily true of D-glutamate and I have not seen much
*scientific* evidence. A lot of the anti-glutamic people know about
the difference and they can get rather excited about it but, AFAIK,
they have not reported any serious tests nor analyses of the
commercial products.


--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA


  #45 (permalink)   Report Post  
ian
 
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mroo philpott-smythe wrote:

> ian > wrote in news:BoVPd.25868$Vg3.25192@lakeread05:
>
>
>>David Downie wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hi
>>>I found out my oyster sauce has MSG in it. Does everyone use MSG when
>>>they cook with oyster sauce?
>>>What's the latest on MSG anyway.
>>>David.
>>>
>>>

>>
>>An article in the Washington Post this week on Pho said that almost
>>all Pho served in restaurants includes msg, and that in small
>>quantities its not harmful. The article included a Pho recipe, if you
>>are interested.

>
>
> Very interested, thanks. I have a recipe from Charles Phan of Slanted Door,
> but would love to have another, or many more.
>
> Thanks!
>
> sq


I guess I was kind of hinting that you all could find it yourself there,
but it DOES require signing up, so here it is - two recipes, actually:

Two Ways to Have Your Pho



Wednesday, February 9, 2005; Page F06

Pho Bo

(Vietnamese Beef and Noodle Soup)

8 servings

Pho, food of street vendors and home cooks, is not subject to any single
formula. Recipes can be closely guarded family secrets. This one suits
me, but feel free to adjust it to your taste.

The multifaceted presentation of pho makes it great for entertaining.
The preferred method of eating pho is to use chopsticks in one hand,
spoon in the other. If desired, dab chili and hoisin sauce on the
noodles and meat as they make your way to your mouth. Slurp as necessary.

For a beefier-tasting broth, add more beef or bones. You can also do
what some Vietnamese cooks do: Add monosodium glutamate, or MSG. A key
component of pho found in Vietnamese kitchens and restaurants, MSG gives
a vibrant, savory lift to the flavor. If using MSG, add 1 1/2 teaspoons
at the same time you add the fish sauce. MSG is available on most
supermarket shelves as Accent or in small bags at Asian groceries (see
box at top right).

For easy retrieval from the broth, the spices can be tied in cheesecloth
or tucked inside a tea ball infuser. You may check your local Vietnamese
grocery for a spice sachet made specifically for pho that contains
spices already toasted and ground into powder.

For the broth:

4 pounds beef soup bones (preferably shin and knuckle bones, with some
meat on them)

8 ounces beef tendon (optional)

2-pound piece of beef brisket or 4 pounds beef shank, beef back ribs or
oxtails

1 1/2 teaspoons kosher salt, or to taste

4-inch piece ginger root (about 4 ounces), unpeeled, thickly sliced

2 medium yellow onions, peeled and quartered

1 package pho spice mixture OR

6 whole star anise, 3 sticks cinnamon, 1 tablespoon cardamom pods, 1
tablespoon black peppercorns and 8 whole cloves

1 small piece rock sugar* (may substitute 2 teaspoons palm sugar or
light brown sugar)

2 tablespoons fish sauce (nuoc mam)

For the assembled pho:

1 pound (16 ounces) rice noodles

2 pounds raw beef (such as top round, flank steak, chuck, brisket) OR
reserved brisket from the broth

Cooked tendon (optional; reserved from broth)

1 medium yellow onion, peeled

1 bunch scallions (green parts only), thinly sliced on a diagonal

About 1/2 cup coarsely chopped cilantro leaves

Plate of Thai basil sprigs

Plate of fresh bean sprouts

Plate of sliced green chili peppers (jalapeño or serrano)

Red chili sauce (such as Tuong Ot Sriracha)

Hoisin sauce

For the broth: Place beef bones in a large, heavy pot or stock pot. Add
enough water to cover and bring to a boil. Cook for 3 or 4 minutes; a
bubbly gray scum should form on top of the liquid. Drain the water,
rinse the bones in the kitchen sink and clean the pot. (This removes the
loose protein that normally would collect on the surface of the broth as
scum.)

Return the bones to the pot, along with the tendon, if using, and
brisket. Add 4 quarts (16 cups) of water and salt and bring almost to a
boil. Reduce the heat to medium-low, cover partially and simmer
actively, skimming away any scum that forms. Simmer the stock for a
total of 6 to 7 hours or overnight. If using brisket, remove it after it
is cooked through, about 1 1/2 hours. Using a slotted spoon, remove the
bones and tendon, if using; reserve the tendon.

Meanwhile, over a flame or in a dry skillet, char the ginger and onions
lightly on all sides. (May instead roast the ginger and onions on a
baking sheet in a 400-degree oven for 30 minutes.) After the broth has
simmered for 6 or 7 hours, add the ginger and onion and continue to
simmer until the broth is well flavored and amber-colored, about 1 more
hour.

Strain the broth through cheesecloth or a fine sieve, pressing gently on
the onion to remove any juices. Discard the solids. Measure broth and
add water as needed to bring total amount of liquid to16 cups.

If using a mix of loose spices, toast them in a dry skillet over medium
heat until aromatic to release their flavorful essential oils. Pour the
strained broth into a pot and bring to a boil. Stir in the rock sugar
and fish sauce. Add the spices, wrapped inside cheesecloth or tucked
inside a tea infuser ball if desired, reduce the heat and simmer for 10
minutes, or longer if a stronger star anise presence is desired. (Keep
in mind that too much of the spice can be overpowering.) Remove and
discard the spices. For maximum flavor, let the soup rest an hour or so
before serving, or make it a day ahead so the flavors have a chance to
meld. (May refrigerate for up to several days. Any fat in the broth will
congeal on the surface and can be spooned away, but leave some for flavor.)

For the assembled pho: Preheat large, deep serving bowls in a 200-degree
oven.

Bring the broth to a boil and let it boil vigorously.

If using dried rice noodles, place them in a large bowl or deep
casserole and cover with boiling water. As the noodles wilt, press them
into the hot water and set aside until softened completely. Drain and
set aside.

You will need either raw beef or the brisket reserved from the broth. If
using raw beef, freeze it for at least 10 minutes and up to 2 hours
before slicing. (Partially frozen meat is easier to slice.) Slice the
raw beef very thinly so that it will cook through in the broth. If using
the brisket or tendon, thinly slice it.

Halve the onion then thinly slice it into moon-shaped wedges.

Bring a large pot of water to a boil. Place a portion of the cooked or
fresh noodles in a large strainer and dip them into the boiling water
until heated through, 5 to 10 seconds. Transfer the noodles to a heated
bowl and repeat with the remaining noodles.

Place some sliced beef and onion into each bowl and ladle about 2 cups
of hot broth over the noodles. If the beef is raw, it should cook
through fairly quickly. Add some of the scallions, cilantro and basil.
Repeat the process for each bowl. Pass the bowls to individual guests
and allow them to add the remaining bean sprouts, chili peppers and
condiments to taste.

Recipe tested by Renee Schettler; e-mail questions to

Ingredients too variable for meaningful analysis.



Le Thiep's Pho Ga

(Chicken Pho)

8 servings

Though less widely consumed in its native Vietnam than its beefy cousin,
chicken pho is a wonderfully light soup infused with the same ginger,
cinnamon and star anise flavors. This pho has the added benefit of being
on the table less than two hours after you start cooking.

If you wish to use MSG to accentuate the chicken flavor, add 1 1/2
teaspoons to the broth when you add the salt.

For the broth:

4-inch piece ginger root, unpeeled

14 medium shallots, peeled

1 1/2 teaspoons salt

Two 3-pound chickens (preferably free-range for optimal flavor)

3 whole scallions

5 star anise

2 cinnamon sticks

1-ounce piece Chinese rock sugar (may substitute 2 teaspoons palm or
light brown sugar)

For the assembled pho:

1 pound dried or fresh rice noodles

A bowl of cilantro leaves

A bowl of finely chopped scallions

Plate of Thai basil sprigs

Plate of fresh bean sprouts

Plate of thinly sliced green chili peppers (jalapeño)

Red chili sauce (such as Tuong Ot Sriracha)

A pepper mill

For the broth: In a 425-degree oven, roast the ginger and shallots until
slightly softened and lightly browned, about 30 minutes for the shallots
and about 45 minutes for the ginger.

Meanwhile, in a large pot bring 4 quarts (16 cups) of water to a boil.
Take note of the water level. Season with salt.

Wash the chickens thoroughly under cold water, removing any packages of
gizzards from the cavity and any excess fat from near the cavity
opening. Gently lower the chickens into the boiling water. Cook at a
light boil for 20 minutes, removing any scum that rises to the surface.
Remove from the heat, cover and set aside for another 10 minutes to
allow the chickens to poach in the hot liquid. Using a sturdy wooden
spoon inserted into the cavity, lift the chickens one at a time, tip
them to drain any liquid and transfer to a cutting board to cool.

Return the pot to medium-high heat and return the broth to a boil.
Replenish any lost liquid that evaporated with boiling water. (There
should be a rim of fat and scum where the original water line was.) Wrap
the ginger and shallots in cheesecloth, if desired. Add the ginger,
shallots and scallions to the broth, reduce the heat to medium-low and
simmer for 25 minutes.

In a dry skillet over medium heat, toast the star anise and cinnamon
until browned but not burned. If desired, wrap the cinnamon and star
anise in cheesecloth or tuck inside a tea infuser. Add the spices and
sugar to the broth and continue to cook for another 10 minutes. Strain
the broth through cheesecloth or a fine sieve, pressing gently on the
shallots to remove any juices. Discard the solids. Measure broth and add
water as needed to bring total amount of liquid to 16 cups.

For maximum flavor, let the soup rest an hour or so before serving, or
make it a day ahead so the flavors have a chance to meld. (May
refrigerate for up to several days. Any fat in the broth will congeal on
the surface and can be spooned away, but leave some for flavor and texture.)

Carve the chicken into pieces and use your fingers or a knife to remove
the meat from the bones. Cut the meat into bite-size pieces, leaving
skin intact if desired.

For the assembled pho: Preheat large, deep serving bowls in a 200-degree
oven.

Bring the broth to a boil.

If using dried rice noodles, place them in a large bowl or deep
casserole and cover with boiling water. As the noodles wilt, press them
into the hot water until softened completely. Drain and set aside.

Bring a large pot of water to a boil. Place a portion of the cooked or
fresh noodles in a large strainer and dip them into the boiling water
until heated through, 5 to 10 seconds. Transfer the noodles to a bowl
and repeat with the remaining noodles.

Place some chicken, cilantro and scallions in each bowl. Ladle about 2
cups of hot broth over everything. Repeat the process for each bowl.

Pass the bowls to individual guests and allow them to add the remaining
basil, bean sprouts, chili peppers and condiments to taste.

Recipe tested by Renee Schettler; e-mail questions to


Ingredients too variable for meaningful analysis.

© 2005 The Washington Post Company


  #46 (permalink)   Report Post  
mroo philpott-smythe
 
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ian > wrote in news1ySd.660$2s.332@lakeread06:
> mroo philpott-smythe wrote:
>> ian > wrote in news:BoVPd.25868$Vg3.25192@lakeread05:



>>>An article in the Washington Post this week on Pho said that almost
>>>all Pho served in restaurants includes msg, and that in small
>>>quantities its not harmful. The article included a Pho recipe, if you
>>>are interested.


>> Very interested, thanks. I have a recipe from Charles Phan of Slanted
>> Door, but would love to have another, or many more.


> I guess I was kind of hinting that you all could find it yourself
> there, but it DOES require signing up, so here it is - two recipes,
> actually:


Well, that's why I didn't want to go there, as it were.

Thanks very much for posting the recipe. I make Pho regularly throughout
the winter. You've just made my winter much better.

sq
  #47 (permalink)   Report Post  
ian
 
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mroo philpott-smythe wrote:

> ian > wrote in news1ySd.660$2s.332@lakeread06:
>
>>mroo philpott-smythe wrote:
>>
>>>ian > wrote in news:BoVPd.25868$Vg3.25192@lakeread05:

>
>
>
>>>>An article in the Washington Post this week on Pho said that almost
>>>>all Pho served in restaurants includes msg, and that in small
>>>>quantities its not harmful. The article included a Pho recipe, if you
>>>>are interested.

>
>
>>>Very interested, thanks. I have a recipe from Charles Phan of Slanted
>>>Door, but would love to have another, or many more.

>
>
>>I guess I was kind of hinting that you all could find it yourself
>>there, but it DOES require signing up, so here it is - two recipes,
>>actually:

>
>
> Well, that's why I didn't want to go there, as it were.
>
> Thanks very much for posting the recipe. I make Pho regularly throughout
> the winter. You've just made my winter much better.
>
> sq


Glad to help. ANYTHING that improves winter is good.

Ian
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