"Frogleg" wrote in message
...
A question came up in rec.food.cooking with someone citing an 18,000
BTU gas burner used for stir-fry. I've often heard "home stoves can't
generate the heat necessary for 'proper' Chinese cooking." Yet, it
seems to me that the origin of stir-fry *must* be to quick-cook with a
minimal amount of fuel, and I'm picturing charcoal 'stoves' and very
compact arrangements aboard boats as in some TV cooking shows and
movies. Of course, one wants the pan quite hot, but not melted into
slag.

My query: Is some exraordinarily powerful heat source really a
requirement of Chinese/stir-fry cooking?


No, definitely not. That's a strange, I dunno, myth or idée fixe out there,
that you need super high heat sources to get "restaurant quality" Chinese
food. Then why do all the Chinese restaurants in my town make totally
crappy fried rice, for instance? Because, just like for other cuisines, it
depends more on good recipes/good cooks and quality ingredients than on heat
and on that smokey taste. [OK, there is one place in Davis now that has
great fried rice, but it is new.]

And you're right: One of my most memorable meals in China was in a home that
had a little portable stove that sat on the counter. The difference was
that she was just a good cook.

One thing that bothers me about this belief is that it suggests that Chinese
cuisine is synonymous with stir-frying. Instead of worrying about their
stir-fries, I think people should expand their repertoire to braised,
steamed, and clay pot dishes. And lots of stir-fried dishes that use the
wok won't be helped much by high heat if a sauce is involved, like for
fish-flavored eggplants.

As kalanamak mentioned, I'd appreciate more heat for stir-fried fresh rice
noodles and for deep-frying whole poultry. Otherwise, a regular stove is
fine, IMO.

Peter

[...]

Peter Dy wrote:

"Frogleg" wrote in message
...
A question came up in rec.food.cooking with someone citing an 18,000
BTU gas burner used for stir-fry. I've often heard "home stoves can't
generate the heat necessary for 'proper' Chinese cooking." Yet, it
seems to me that the origin of stir-fry *must* be to quick-cook with a
minimal amount of fuel, and I'm picturing charcoal 'stoves' and very
compact arrangements aboard boats as in some TV cooking shows and
movies. Of course, one wants the pan quite hot, but not melted into
slag.

No such thing as charcoal stoves.

The dry grasses and other fuels the Chinese used produced a high heat
with a short burn time, hence "the need for speed" when cooking.

My query: Is some exraordinarily powerful heat source really a
requirement of Chinese/stir-fry cooking?

No, definitely not. That's a strange, I dunno, myth or idée fixe out there,
that you need super high heat sources to get "restaurant quality" Chinese
food.

In Cantonese cooking, its a definite YES!

Its called "Wok Hey" in Cantonese.

Then why do all the Chinese restaurants in my town make totally
crappy fried rice, for instance? Because, just like for other cuisines, it
depends more on good recipes/good cooks and quality ingredients than on heat
and on that smokey taste. [OK, there is one place in Davis now that has
great fried rice, but it is new.]

Beacuse in your part of town, its whats expected from the masses.

Even in NYC, if I go into a restaurant outside of the three Chinatowns,
and order in Cantonese, telling them what I want and how I want it
prepared,
the results are almost always dissapointing because they still see a Caucasian
face ordering.

A perfect example. Beef Chow Fun or in the Cantonese "Gon Chow Nau Haw".
Even in Chinatown this can be a disaster. The high heat is needed to slightly
char the noodles while barely cooking the scallion, with liitle or no grease
apparent and no gloppy-gooey sauce.

And you're right: One of my most memorable meals in China was in a home that
had a little portable stove that sat on the counter. The difference was
that she was just a good cook.

What did she make? Not all Chinese food requires a burner with enough BTU's
to provide proper "Wok hey".

One thing that bothers me about this belief is that it suggests that Chinese
cuisine is synonymous with stir-frying. Instead of worrying about their
stir-fries, I think people should expand their repertoire to braised,
steamed, and clay pot dishes. And lots of stir-fried dishes that use the
wok won't be helped much by high heat if a sauce is involved, like for
fish-flavored eggplants.

As kalanamak mentioned, I'd appreciate more heat for stir-fried fresh rice
noodles and for deep-frying whole poultry. Otherwise, a regular stove is
fine, IMO.

On a regular stove, I recommend the heaviest iron wok you can manage,
as the iron will hold heat better than the thin stainless ones, and keep
the portions small. Make two batches instead of one large one to keep
the initial temperature drop to a minimum.

"If Yan can, I can do better!" - Slim

"slim" wrote in message
...


Peter Dy wrote:
[...]
My query: Is some exraordinarily powerful heat source really a
requirement of Chinese/stir-fry cooking?

No, definitely not. That's a strange, I dunno, myth or idée fixe out
there,
that you need super high heat sources to get "restaurant quality"
Chinese
food.

In Cantonese cooking, its a definite YES!

Its called "Wok Hey" in Cantonese.


You don't say...


Beacuse in your part of town, its whats expected from the masses.

Even in NYC,


Uh, here you are agreeing with me.

Fancy and expensive pots and pans, expensive German knives, and expensive
high-powered stoves are not necessary for great cooking. Having such items
guarantees nothing. I'd rather eat fried rice at my Cantonese friends'
places with their crappy electric stoves than at restaurants that have
powerful stoves which lend "wok fragrance" to crap. One doesn't even need a
wok. I say: Go look for great recipes, learn good techniques, and use great
ingredients and you'll make better Chinese than most every restaurant in the
States. You say: Try Italian instead. I think that is a dogmatic position,
and certainly not fun!

[...]

On a regular stove, I recommend the heaviest iron wok you can manage,
as the iron will hold heat better than the thin stainless ones, and keep
the portions small. Make two batches instead of one large one to keep
the initial temperature drop to a minimum.


Huh? So, you just don't know what "requirement" means, is that it?

Peter

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 02:26:37 GMT, slim wrote:
A perfect example. Beef Chow Fun or in the Cantonese "Gon Chow Nau Haw".
Even in Chinatown this can be a disaster. The high heat is needed to slightly
char the noodles while barely cooking the scallion, with liitle or no grease
apparent and no gloppy-gooey sauce.

Chow fun is indeed the perfect example of a dish that really needs the
BTUs of a professional wok burner. I produce an edible version and
cheat by adding a few drops of Gravy Mater or Kitchen Bouquet, which
puts a slight char flavor from the caramel. (I use it on beef, shrimp
or pork.) A drizzle of thick soy - less than 1/2 tsp - also helps
add a browned flavor to the noodles.

slim wrote:

Peter Dy wrote:

"Frogleg" wrote in message
...
A question came up in rec.food.cooking with someone citing an 18,000
BTU gas burner used for stir-fry. I've often heard "home stoves can't
generate the heat necessary for 'proper' Chinese cooking." Yet, it
seems to me that the origin of stir-fry *must* be to quick-cook with a
minimal amount of fuel, and I'm picturing charcoal 'stoves' and very
compact arrangements aboard boats as in some TV cooking shows and
movies. Of course, one wants the pan quite hot, but not melted into
slag.

No such thing as charcoal stoves.

Sure there are...Or are you somehow tripping on the word 'stove'...?

Charcoal is the cheapest and most used fuel in my neck-of-the-woods.
They are used for cooking most grilled meats, bananas, vegetables, etc., but not
for stir-frying
My charcoal stove gets used almost every day. I love the taste of meat cooked this
way.

BubbaBob wrote:

slim wrote:



No such thing as charcoal stoves.


Really? I'm guessing that you've never been to Viet Nam.

I haven't. Is it cool? How is the food compared to
what you find in Vietnamese restaurants in the US?

--
Dan

BubbaBob wrote:

Vietnamese food in the US is in dire danger of being watered down and
Americanized, in the same way that Cantonese cuisine was ruined in
the '50's.

Huh? That's a leading comment if I've ever heard one.

Any qualifiers or is this a blanket statement?

LeeBat
curious yellow

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:19:56 GMT, LeeBat wrote:

BubbaBob wrote:

Vietnamese food in the US is in dire danger of being watered down and
Americanized, in the same way that Cantonese cuisine was ruined in
the '50's.

Huh? That's a leading comment if I've ever heard one.

Any qualifiers or is this a blanket statement?

How come "fusion" is brilliant, and "adapting" is godawful? I have
never visited an Asian country to taste "authentic" dishes, but my
pantry includes rice vinegar and soy and sambal ulek, and I'm fond of
veg-heavy, meat-light stir-fry dishes. My mother never used ginger
(except powdered in baking), and certainly not lemon grass or
five-spice or black mustard seed. Or *any* of the wide variety of
recipes, ingredients, herbs, and spices I have access to. I happen to
like sashimi and sushi, and don't much care to pay a large price for
California Roll, but don't believe it's criminal.

Much "authentic" cuisine is something I frankly have no desire to
sample. I can go to my grave quite satistifed without ever having
sampled chicken feet in any form. I am a product of my culture. I am
sure that French food in France is superior to that offered by La
Maison de la Casa House, and Vietnamese food in Vietnam more varied
and interesting than that of a single pho restaurant (even 'though
owned and staffed by Vietnamese immigrants) in my town.

But "watered down" isn't what I'd call my opportunities to taste pho
or sushi or green papaya salad or fettucini alfredo in the US. Wrold
cuisines adapt to the availability of ingredients and local tastes.

Salut/Hi Frogleg,

le/on Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:01:13 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:19:56 GMT, LeeBat wrote:

BubbaBob wrote:

Vietnamese food in the US is in dire danger of being watered down and
Americanized, in the same way that Cantonese cuisine was ruined in
the '50's.

Huh? That's a leading comment if I've ever heard one.

Any qualifiers or is this a blanket statement?

How come "fusion" is brilliant, and "adapting" is godawful?

Because they're two things that are completely different.

I'm not going to argue with you, however, as there's no way I'll succceed in
persuading you to change your mind. However let me say that I am in complete
disagreement with you. You see, I HAVE been to Hong Kong and Singapore, and
I DID take the trouble to compare and contrast Chinese (from various
provinces) cooking in the USA, in the UK in Australia and in New Zealand
with those that I found in Asia.

This is a huge subject and nothing to do with the subject of the thread,
btw.

Much "authentic" cuisine is something I frankly have no desire to
sample. I can go to my grave quite satistifed without ever having
sampled chicken feet in any form.

I can't disagree with that, though I'm glad to have had the chance to taste
some other products unavaulable in the USA.

I am a product of my culture.
I'm amazed that should prevent you from wanting to discover the pleasure of
foerign food as authentically as possible.

I am sure that French food in France is superior to that offered by La
Maison de la Casa House,

Again, this is off topic, but I CAN confirm that many so called "french"
dishes that you eat in the States are a travesty of real French cooking. Not
all, but certainly cheeses (all the best French Cheeses are made with raw
milk, and as such are banned in the States). meat products and many
vegetables.
and Vietnamese food in Vietnam more varied

But "watered down" isn't what I'd call my opportunities to taste pho
or sushi or green papaya salad or fettucini alfredo in the US. Wrold
cuisines adapt to the availability of ingredients and local tastes.

They do, but it would behove you to display a little more humility and
regret. If you've not eaten the real thing, that doesn't invalidate the
difference. If it's true that some adaptations are made to suit local
prejudices (balut would be hard for you to swallow), many others are made
because access to the real thing is either expensive (importing vietnamese
mint would be costly) or illegal (some methods of preserving) or difficult.
But that doesn't stop the result being pale imitations. Try - just once -
making a proper tagliatelli alla carbonara with real home made pasta, real
free range eggs, real italian pancetta and real stravecchio parmigiano
reggiano. I did, and was converted from disliking pasta to adoring it.

Fusion cooking is a created cuisine, made by talented cooks to combine the
best of two completely different strands of culinary philosophy. Usually
Eastern and Western, it could also be a combination of Japanese and Peruvian
(as at Nobu) or any two or more entirely disparate cuisines. Actually I'd
argue that Balti cooking is a fair example of Fusion cooking. It cannot be
judged except upon its own criteria, I feel.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare

Sometimes oi just sits and thinks
Sometimes oi just sits.

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:37:45 +0100, Ian Hoare
wrote:

Salut/Hi Frogleg,

le/on Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:01:13 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

How come "fusion" is brilliant, and "adapting" is godawful?

Because they're two things that are completely different.

I'm not going to argue with you, however, as there's no way I'll succceed in
persuading you to change your mind. However let me say that I am in complete
disagreement with you. You see, I HAVE been to Hong Kong and Singapore, and
I DID take the trouble to compare and contrast Chinese (from various
provinces) cooking in the USA, in the UK in Australia and in New Zealand
with those that I found in Asia.

This is a huge subject and nothing to do with the subject of the thread,
btw.

[Actually, the thread evolved, as so many do. I have changed the
subject here.]

It *is* a large topic for discussion. However,... should I be denied
cooking or tasting Vietnamese or Chinese or Italian or Mexican food in
the US simply because I don't travel to Vietnam or China or Italy or
Mexico? I *know* it's going to be different. Perhaps it's all
Vietnamese-American (even when the staff doesn't speak English), or
Chinese-American (even when the cook is in flight from the INS).

Given the interest in "ethnic" foods and cooking, and the
ever-increasing availability of ingredients, I feel there's nothing
despicable about saying one "likes Thai food" when one's experience
has taken place in US restaurants (or kitchens) where some exotic
variety of toad-sweat is unavailable to make a dish entirely
authentic. Chop Suey is "authentic." It's Chinese immigrant
accomodation to locally available ingredients cooked in a Chinese
manner. It wasn't, at first, a "watering down" of fine Chinese cuisne
for Caucasian taste. It was home cooking.

Much "authentic" cuisine is something I frankly have no desire to
sample. I can go to my grave quite satistifed without ever having
sampled chicken feet in any form.

I can't disagree with that, though I'm glad to have had the chance to taste
some other products unavaulable in the USA.

Thanks for the chicken feet exception. :-) I'll exchange an
appreciation of being able to have something we can't get here. Calvin
Trillin maintained that no Chinese restaurant in NYC could equal, I
think it was "Crab in Milk" as prepared in a Chinese restaurant close
to the Golders Green tube stop in London. Then he visited Hong Kong
and found Crab in Milk that was completely off the scale.
Nevertheless, he had a rich, full life with the lesser recipes, and I
presume isn't eschewing NYC Chinese restaurants because they don't
have *perfect* Crab in Milk.

I am a product of my culture.

I'm amazed that should prevent you from wanting to discover the pleasure of
foerign food as authentically as possible.

Well, I'm *not* someone paid to travel for food or any other purpose.
If I can only have *real* Chinese in China or Mexican in Mexico City,
I guess I'll have to live without. I *am* delighted that I can either
go to restaurants or cook at home and have such a great variety. I
figure the Pho shop will give me a taste. The taco outlet run by an
Indian family was not so hot(!) with tacos, but sweetly gave me a
recipe/method and some spices for cooking an Indian veg I grew from
seeds passed along from fellow gardeners.

I am sure that French food in France is superior to that offered by La
Maison de la Casa House,

Again, this is off topic, but I CAN confirm that many so called "french"
dishes that you eat in the States are a travesty of real French cooking. Not
all, but certainly cheeses (all the best French Cheeses are made with raw
milk, and as such are banned in the States). meat products and many
vegetables.

We are certainly deficient in cheese. The EU also bans unpasturized
cheese, more's the pity. But many French dishes were devised to make
fairly marginal meat cuts into something edible.

and Vietnamese food in Vietnam more varied

But "watered down" isn't what I'd call my opportunities to taste pho
or sushi or green papaya salad or fettucini alfredo in the US. Wrold
cuisines adapt to the availability of ingredients and local tastes.

They do, but it would behove you to display a little more humility and
regret. If you've not eaten the real thing,

Not a chance, bucko. When my Chinese SIL prepares a meal from
California ingredients, I don't sigh, "oh, I wonder what the Real
Thing tastes like."

that doesn't invalidate the
difference. If it's true that some adaptations are made to suit local
prejudices (balut would be hard for you to swallow),

" balut - a fertilised egg with a partially developed duckling, which
is eaten boiled." You got *that* right. Why on *earth* would I travel
to the source for such an "authentic" snack? When I read descriptions
of whole fried fish with crispy skin, or savory cous-cous, or Indian
rice sweets, my mouth waters. I have no desire whatsoever to go on a
Cook's Tour of strange and unusual food. I don't want to be given a
sheep's eyeball as a treat.

many others are made
because access to the real thing is either expensive (importing vietnamese
mint would be costly) or illegal (some methods of preserving) or difficult.
But that doesn't stop the result being pale imitations. Try - just once -
making a proper tagliatelli alla carbonara with real home made pasta, real
free range eggs, real italian pancetta and real stravecchio parmigiano
reggiano. I did, and was converted from disliking pasta to adoring it.

One recipe, among all the thousands of varieties of pasta dishes, is
acceptable to you? And *I'm* provincial?!

Fusion cooking is a created cuisine, made by talented cooks to combine the
best of two completely different strands of culinary philosophy. Usually
Eastern and Western, it could also be a combination of Japanese and Peruvian
(as at Nobu) or any two or more entirely disparate cuisines. Actually I'd
argue that Balti cooking is a fair example of Fusion cooking. It cannot be
judged except upon its own criteria, I feel.

So nothing is acceptable "adaptation" unless created by talented
(professional) chefs? Adding a little soy, ginger, and almonds to
green beans is phony. Lemon grass and chiles in chicken stock is
bogus. But asparagus with egg sauce ($18) and "mingling with the sexy,
hip crowd"
(http://www.myriadrestaurantgroup.com...obu%20Main.htm)
is authentic?

Salut/Hi Frogleg,

As I said, I'm not going to argue with you. You won't be persuaded.

However there's an error of fact that I will correct.

le/on Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:08:56 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

*is* a large topic for discussion. However,... should I be denied
cooking or tasting Vietnamese or Chinese or Italian or Mexican food in
the US simply because I don't travel to Vietnam or China or Italy or
Mexico? I *know* it's going to be different

No, but you should be aware that what you're eating is vastly different.
Better perhaps in some respects, less good in others.


I am a product of my culture.

I'm amazed that should prevent you from wanting to discover the pleasure of
foerign food as authentically as possible.

Well, I'm *not* someone paid to travel for food or any other purpose.

Neither am I, but I'm sufficiently interested in it to have been prepared to
put aside all the money from ou B&B for two years, so that I _could_ find
out for myself.

all, but certainly cheeses (all the best French Cheeses are made with raw
milk, and as such are banned in the States). meat products and many
vegetables.

We are certainly deficient in cheese. The EU also bans unpasturized
cheese, more's the pity.

This is the error of fact that I want to correct. I don't know WHERE you got
that idea, but it's entirely incorrect. All the cheeses I serve at my table
are made from raw milk, and none are produced or bought illegally or via the
back door.

But many French dishes were devised to make fairly marginal meat cuts into something edible.

It'sa certainly true that the genius of French cooking (which it shares with
Chinese, by the way) is that over the years it has evolved recipes which
convert relatively unpromising raw materials into soimething truly
delightful. Take Coq au vin. A 3-4 year old rooster that has strutted his
stuff in liberty is going to be a pretty tough bit of meat. Roasting ands
grilling - or stir frying - will not give palatable results. However,
marinade it in a somewhat acid wine (to break down the toughness in the
fibres) then sauté it briefly before flaming in brandy and then simmering it
(without boiling, which would toughen the fibres) in the marinade until the
meat is tender (I do it over 3 days, about 2 hours a day), produces one of
the greatest dishes of the world. Recipes in the States (or France or the
UK), using a battery chicken, which would fall to a rag after 1 hour's
simmering are a travesty. Chinese and many other great cuisines have evolved
in the same way. But to go from there to dismiss dfoing all you can to
discover the best cuisines in the world because they are capable of using
such cuts is a kind of culinary iconoclasm that is breathtaking.


But that doesn't stop the result being pale imitations. Try - just once -
making a proper tagliatelli alla carbonara with real home made pasta, real
free range eggs, real italian pancetta and real stravecchio parmigiano
reggiano. I did, and was converted from disliking pasta to adoring it.

One recipe, among all the thousands of varieties of pasta dishes, is
acceptable to you? And *I'm* provincial?!

I didn't say that. But when you try the real thing, you realise just how
pallid the substitutions have made it.

Fusion cooking is a created cuisine,

So nothing is acceptable "adaptation" unless created by talented
(professional) chefs?

I didn't say that either. I was arguing that the thought processes and
creativivity are entirely different.


bogus. But asparagus with egg sauce ($18) and "mingling with the sexy,
hip crowd"
(http://www.myriadrestaurantgroup.com...obu%20Main.htm)
is authentic?

I've not followed the link, but all cuisines are capable of excess and not
all cuisines are uniformly successful. In fact all creative invention (art,
literature, music, cooking) is likely to produce somewhere between 80% and
95% dross. Time alone will tell whether any particular invention is genius
or dross. I don't, not by any manner of means, allow myself to be hypnotised
the the glamour element in any cooking style, no matter how popular or how
well written up. All I said, and stand by, is that the compromise that
substitutes a battery broiler for a rooster bears no relationship in
creativity, to the creation of a dish using eastern ingredients and western
cooking techniques (or the other way round) by someone who has spent his
whole life tasting and judging severely her culinary creations.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare

Sometimes oi just sits and thinks
Sometimes oi just sits.

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:40:01 +0100, Ian Hoare
wrote:

Salut/Hi Frogleg,
le/on Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:08:56 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

*is* a large topic for discussion. However,... should I be denied
cooking or tasting Vietnamese or Chinese or Italian or Mexican food in
the US simply because I don't travel to Vietnam or China or Italy or
Mexico? I *know* it's going to be different

No, but you should be aware that what you're eating is vastly different.
Better perhaps in some respects, less good in others.

OK. I know it. It still doesn't mean that 'ethnic' food (home cooking
or restaurant) should be distained as "watered-down" (not your words,
but another poster's). I expect by now that *all* of world cuisine is
far different than it was 20, 50, 100, 1000 years ago. Does it include
chiles, potatoes, tomatoes, squash, or corn? Clearly either fusion
(OK) or adaptation/adoption (non-authentic). That is, away from the
Americas. I'm perfectly willing to believe there are in-situ dishes I
might enjoy more than what Thai Garden or Mama's Cocina has on the
menu. OTOH, when Thai Garden's owner/cook is delighted to "adapt" to
plentiful supplies of tender beef, local fish, and veg/fruit, I don't
think it's outrageous to say "ummm. Good! I *like* Thai food."

Well, I'm *not* someone paid to travel for food or any other purpose.

Neither am I, but I'm sufficiently interested in it to have been prepared to
put aside all the money from ou B&B for two years, so that I _could_ find
out for myself.

This is a pretty exclusionary view. Good for you, if you enjoy and can
afford travel and pursuing your culinary interests. However, *don't*
feel free to rain on my parade when I 'discover' Ethiopian cuisine in
a DC restaurant or delight in my first green papaya salad. Don't tell
me what I eat and enjoy is crap, and I really *must* go to New Delhi
to taste *real* curried shrimp or Jakarta for rijstafel.

all, but certainly cheeses (all the best French Cheeses are made with raw
milk, and as such are banned in the States). meat products and many
vegetables.

We are certainly deficient in cheese. The EU also bans unpasturized
cheese, more's the pity.

This is the error of fact that I want to correct. I don't know WHERE you got
that idea, but it's entirely incorrect. All the cheeses I serve at my table
are made from raw milk, and none are produced or bought illegally or via the
back door.

Where I got the idea was the BBC sitcom 'Chef!' in which Lenny Henry
appears to have a great deal of trouble obtaining a genuine,
unpasteurized Stilton. It appears that while the US is waay too picky
about cheese, the EU may be following suit in some areas. Hold onto
that cheese, boyo. BTW, I made my own soft cheese (easy) from
unpasteurized goats' milk. Am I authentic?

But many French dishes were devised to make fairly marginal meat cuts into something edible.

It'sa certainly true that the genius of French cooking (which it shares with
Chinese, by the way) is that over the years it has evolved recipes which
convert relatively unpromising raw materials into soimething truly
delightful. Take Coq au vin. A 3-4 year old rooster that has strutted his
stuff in liberty is going to be a pretty tough bit of meat.

Congrats to the French. There are pigs' feet and ears in my local
grocery stores which have, presumably, been made palatable to many
with traditional recipes. And I betcha 98 out of 100 ear purchasers
would be delighted to see a nice ham plopped down on their doorstep
instead. If you won't try and tempt me with aged fowl, I won't invite
you to try pigs' feet. (Which I never have.)

snip labor/time intensive recipe to make an old rooster into a meal

But that doesn't stop the result being pale imitations. Try - just once -
making a proper tagliatelli alla carbonara with real home made pasta, real
free range eggs, real italian pancetta and real stravecchio parmigiano
reggiano. I did, and was converted from disliking pasta to adoring it.

One recipe, among all the thousands of varieties of pasta dishes, is
acceptable to you? And *I'm* provincial?!

I didn't say that. But when you try the real thing, you realise just how
pallid the substitutions have made it.

I'm not much of an egg eater, and 'free range' eggs aren't available
within 15 miles or so. I *do* occasionally make my own pasta. Can and
have bought some pretty classy parmigiano reggiano. Virginia 'country'
ham is considered quite the equal of prosciutto (which I realize is
different from pancetta. There's plenty of bacon around here, too.) I
just don't see how Parma has the patent on the *only* way to make
pasta with bacon and eggs. And that every similar recipe is inferior.

asparagus with egg sauce ($18) and "mingling with the sexy,
hip crowd"
(http://www.myriadrestaurantgroup.com...obu%20Main.htm)
is authentic?

I've not followed the link, but all cuisines are capable of excess and not
all cuisines are uniformly successful.

You were the one who mentioned Nobu.

In fact all creative invention (art,
literature, music, cooking) is likely to produce somewhere between 80% and
95% dross. Time alone will tell whether any particular invention is genius
or dross. I don't, not by any manner of means, allow myself to be hypnotised
the the glamour element in any cooking style, no matter how popular or how
well written up. All I said, and stand by, is that the compromise that
substitutes a battery broiler for a rooster bears no relationship in
creativity, to the creation of a dish using eastern ingredients and western
cooking techniques (or the other way round) by someone who has spent his
whole life tasting and judging severely her culinary creations.

Nice for you. I don't doubt your experience and delight. Just don't
tell me my *own* delight is inferior. I *know* a supermarket pineapple
isn't the same as what's on the breakfast table in Hawaii (which I
*have* sampled). But it's pretty damn good. And I'm happy to be able
to buy one. If a Vietnamese restaurant opens in my town, I go. I don't
say, "oh, well. This isn't as good (or bad?) as food in Vietnam.
Sigh." I say, "wow! This tastes terrific." I don't feel punished by
not having aged roosters available. I'm not sophisticated enough to
appreciate many of the fine distinctions. Just let me enjoy spicing
with lemon grass and cilantro, making my own (adaptive, probably
inferior) red chile sauce, and chicken broth. And visits to
non-authentic restaurants.

"Frogleg" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:40:01 +0100, Ian Hoare
wrote:

Salut/Hi Frogleg,
le/on Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:08:56 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

*is* a large topic for discussion. However,... should I be denied
cooking or tasting Vietnamese or Chinese or Italian or Mexican food in
the US simply because I don't travel to Vietnam or China or Italy or
Mexico? I *know* it's going to be different

No, but you should be aware that what you're eating is vastly different.
Better perhaps in some respects, less good in others.

OK. I know it. It still doesn't mean that 'ethnic' food (home cooking
or restaurant) should be distained as "watered-down" (not your words,
but another poster's). I expect by now that *all* of world cuisine is
far different than it was 20, 50, 100, 1000 years ago. Does it include
chiles, potatoes, tomatoes, squash, or corn?


I just got back from a little trip to Germany. You can't get German bread
here in the States; it is as simple as that. That is what the original
poster and Ian, I'm sure, meant. They didn't say that there exists a
Platonic Form for German bread or Thai cuisine that remains the same for
eternity. I think you are the one insisting on some strict definition for
"authenticity," not us.


[...]
Well, I'm *not* someone paid to travel for food or any other purpose.

Neither am I, but I'm sufficiently interested in it to have been prepared
to
put aside all the money from ou B&B for two years, so that I _could_ find
out for myself.

This is a pretty exclusionary view. Good for you, if you enjoy and can
afford travel and pursuing your culinary interests. However, *don't*
feel free to rain on my parade when I 'discover' Ethiopian cuisine in
a DC restaurant or delight in my first green papaya salad. Don't tell
me what I eat and enjoy is crap, and I really *must* go to New Delhi
to taste *real* curried shrimp or Jakarta for rijstafel.


They have good rijsttafel in the Netherlands too! Just like there is
great Chinese, Thai, etc in the US. So, no, you certainly don't have to
travel to those countries. But if you are eating at some place that I know
serves crappy, Americanized fare, I will tell you it is crap. If I met you
on the street, I wouldn't, but this is a newsgroup inhabited by people with
a keen interest in Asian food; if you want to go to Olive Garden instead of
learning of a great authentic Italian place, you needn't read food
newsgroups with its food nerds to find out about the Olive Garden. I'm sure
Olive Garden might have some tasty dishes, but I'm not sure what your point
is in arguing on a food NG that we are elitist or something for prefering
other places.

If you don't like travelling, fine, but the reasons you have given for it
("I am a product of my culture"; "I'm not paid to travel") do not hold
water. The US is an dynamic, immigrant country and has had a long history
of travel (Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Mark Twain, Hemingway). There
were Americans most everywhere I went to in Frankfurt and Maastricht. Like
Ian, I am not paid to travel either. It is not expensive, especially to
someplace like Mexico. Some people just prefer buying expensive SUVs and
the gas needed for it, than taking a trip abroad.


[...]
Nice for you. I don't doubt your experience and delight. Just don't
tell me my *own* delight is inferior. I *know* a supermarket pineapple
isn't the same as what's on the breakfast table in Hawaii (which I
*have* sampled). But it's pretty damn good. And I'm happy to be able
to buy one. If a Vietnamese restaurant opens in my town, I go. I don't
say, "oh, well. This isn't as good (or bad?) as food in Vietnam.
Sigh." I say, "wow! This tastes terrific." I don't feel punished by
not having aged roosters available. I'm not sophisticated enough to
appreciate many of the fine distinctions. Just let me enjoy spicing
with lemon grass and cilantro, making my own (adaptive, probably
inferior) red chile sauce, and chicken broth. And visits to
non-authentic restaurants.


Methinks you are fighting against a straw man of your own creation. I
recently wrote here that American chickens, especial breasts, taste like
cottony crap compared to Mexican chickens. I think we should feel punished
for what has happened to our chickens the last few decades. That doesn't
mean you shouldn't eat American chickens (except for maybe the breasts), but
I doubt anyone felt like I was making them feel inferior when I wrote that.

Peter

Salut/Hi Frogleg,

I said I'm not going to argue with you, and I'm not. If I thought that there
was any chance of persuading you to discard just a bit of your
americano-centric insularity I might.

le/on Sat, 29 Nov 2003 21:35:38 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:40:01 +0100, Ian Hoare
wrote:


plentiful supplies of tender beef, local fish, and veg/fruit, I don't
think it's outrageous to say "ummm. Good! I *like* Thai food."

I'd feel happier if you understood that what you're really saying is "I
like what I get served as Thai food in the USA".

This is a pretty exclusionary view.

Certainly not. You could do it too. Democracy is as much about the right to
use your money in any way you choose as anything else. All I'm saying and
will go on saying, is that "ethnic" food as served in many countries is all
too often a pallid watered down imitation, emasculated to please the pallid
watered down taste of the people living there.

Where I got the idea was the BBC sitcom 'Chef!' in which Lenny Henry
appears to have a great deal of trouble obtaining a genuine,
unpasteurized Stilton.

There is no Stilton made from unpasteurised milk any more (more's the pity).
But that's as much to do with the US ban on importing unpasteurised cheeses
as anything else. Add that to the way in which the British food safety
authorities (mis)interpret European legislation, the difficulty of obtaining
raw milk in the UK, and the pallid watered down taste of many Brits,
deprived of tasty food for decades until the resurgence of asian food
(albeit pallid and watered down, often) and you can understand why many
british cheesemakers have simply given up making the effort. The REALLY sad
thing is that the industrial cheesemakers in Europe have succeeded in their
strategy of divide and conquer, so traditional cheesemakers throughout
Europe see themselves as isolated remnants of (french)(British)(Italian)
(Dutch)(Spanish)(etc) true culture surrounded by unthinking foreigners. In
truth, they are ALL fighting the same battle and would be vastly stronger
and more effective of they joined together and fought as one.


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare

Sometimes oi just sits and thinks
Sometimes oi just sits.

"Ian Hoare" wrote in message
news
Salut/Hi Frogleg,

I said I'm not going to argue with you, and I'm not. If I thought that
there
was any chance of persuading you to discard just a bit of your
americano-centric insularity I might.


Hey Ian,

I'm sure you know that not all of us Americans are like that. I'm pretty
****ed, 'cause I met two really nice Russians in Germany who told me that
they hate America and found us horribly arrogant. I've lived 2 separate
years in Germany, have visited Europe numerous times, but I had never heard
anything like that. We were maybe naive, clumsy, uncultured, but never
arrogant. I think it all has to do with our Little Hilter, the
war-mongering George Bush. He and his little Arschlecker puppy dog, Tony
Blair. Oh, and those little Scheissstücke C. Rice, C. Powell, and those
Israeli Nazis, Feith, Wolfowitz, and Pearl.

Wish we could become good citizens of the world again, but with ****ed up
people in Virginia and the like, I don't have my hopes up for the next
election....

Peter