On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 20:01:15 GMT, "amalia"
wrote:

I'm late to this discussion, I thought this was actually a technical
discussion on BTUs and I waited to read it till I had time to take some
notes for a (someday) kitchen remodel!

Did you find the original thread on Google? I started it by asking why
I kept hearing/reading that 'real' Chinese food couldn't be made at
home, or at least a home without a supercharged industrial-strength
stove. My understanding was that much of Chinese cooking evolved with
a great deal of concentration on efficient use of fuel. I just
couldn't (can't) believe that every Chinese home and restaurant is
furnished with an 18,000 BTU gas stove of some sort. [As a sidebar, if
I can set 2 Tblsp. of oil in an untended wok on fire in 90 seconds,
isn't that hot enough?]

I wish BubbaBob would chime in on what he meant about Vietnamese cooking
here in the US, because I think FrogLeg would understand better what he
means, given his clear appreciation for "ethnic" -- if not exotic :-) --
food.

I am by *no means* the expert on Asian cooking that DC, Steve Wertz, Ian,
kalanamak and other afa'ers are. However, I am an enthusiast who has been
fortunate enough to travel in SE Asia. BubbaBob's comment resonated with me
because I'd eaten lots of Vietnamese food in the US before going there and
was struck by the fact that in my area, we can get food that tastes
strikingly like what I enjoyed in South Vietnam. Certainly we don't get all
the variety, but the balance of flavors is more true than I've found for
Thai, Cambodian or Burmese food here in the San Francisco Bay Area.

I assumed that what BubbaBob meant was that most restaurants haven't
succumbed to Vietnamese versions of General's Chicken or other dishes
prepared to appeal to a... what? mainstream? unadventurous? uneducated?
(meant in a non-subjective way, as in "I am uneducated about the food of
Ghana") audience.

I think Thai food in the US has changed since I started eating it 1.5
decades ago. Perhaps just my tastes have. I'm not old enough to comment on
changes in Chinese food since the '50s, although IMO it's getting better
with the rise of regionally-focused Chinese food. And I think there's a
place for Americanized Chinese food here in America. Lots of people like it,
and even the most aesthetic eaters often crave those familiar dishes. But I
would be very sad if it became harder to find what I think of as "authentic"
Vietnamese food here, and I was left with deep fried beef balls in my pho or
some insane batter-fried summer roll with cheese ;-)

Thank you, Amelia. I have tried, with very little success, to suggest
that a blanket condemnation of all "foreign" food available in the US
as the equivalent of opening a can of Chef Boyardee or Chung King is
mistaken. And also that it is possible to have genuine experiences of
the food of other cultures/countries without going to Hungary for
palacsinta and Hong Kong for crab in milk. There are surely many
dishes and ingredients available *only* in their native habitat. I
*know* that Taco Bell doesn't serve the same food as a Mexico City
street vendor, nor do I expect I'm getting a real tast of China at #1
Kitchen. I figure the tiny Thai grocery & 8 table restaurant where the
cooking is done by the (formerly) Thai wife and her relatives *did*
introduce me to many examples of non-banquet, genuine Thai food. If
many Americans are averse to 'spicy/hot' and choose Pad Thai instead
of Yum Nua, perhaps many Thais do, too.

Rather than view US offerings of 'foreign' food as watered down, why
not think of those influences that ginger up(!) US food tastes as
positive? No one wants a homgenous world culture, but the sky won't
fall if Malasians turn out to like McDonald's fries and Americans use
more salsa than catsup.

I've been following this thread on a on & off basis, where time permits me &
i must say there are some interesting points metioned but i've since lost
track of the original question & how it's moved on to where it is now. So
please forgive me if i'm going over old ground. I've also provided my
answers below in point form as i think there's simply too much to elaborate
on in an newsgroup article like this.

" "Frogleg" wrote

"Read about it"? Didn't I just say I *did*? One of my questions is why
Malasians can adapt/include foods from China, India, and Europe and
create an "authentic" cuisine,
Snip

IMHO, the SE Asians (Malaysians, Thais, Singaporeans, Vietnamese,
Phillipinos, Indonesians etc) are better at adapting & creating an
"authentic" cuisine or fusion of foods is because :

1. They more or less share the same ingredients & staple diet.
2. Some of them share the same local cultures & traditions.
3. And where religion is involved, it determines their diet & cuisine.
4. The people of this region have over the years traded & inter-married with
each other.
5. With the arrival of trading ships, firstly the Arab & Chinese & later
European powers like the British, the Dutch, the Portuguese, the Spaniards &
the French, colonisation of various countries within the region & the
movement of local labour within the region created a sort of "melting pot"
of cultures & this is esp. true in it's cuisine.
6. All this happened over the last 500 or more years ago.
7. Traditional Asians dine together as a family & even as an extended
family, therefore cooking & eating is an important daily event. You'll find
that traditional Asian families have very strong matriarchial ties & a
'passion' for cuisine/food is instilled in children at an early age.

That's why Malaysians & other SE Asians are quite well at adapting &
creating "authentic" cuisine of various fusions. You can say it's almost
part of their culture now & this is esp. true of their modern cuisine. From
housewives to streetside hawkers to rest. chefs, it's no longer just an
amalgam or fusion of local or global taste & ingredients, it's now moved on
to adapting old techniques & old recipes with modern appliances & modern
recipes. It's an ongoing process & evolution of their cuisine.

For an insight into some of the 'fusion' cuisines & culture, try looking up
'Straits Chinese' or 'Peranakans' or 'Nonya' or 'Baba'. The 'Perankans' -
collective term for the People & Culture of the Straits Chinese are
currently undergoing a bit of a revival, so it's a bit easier finding
something about them now than before. You'll also find Historical facts for
Penang, Malacca & Singapore interesting and perhaps give you a better
understanding why these places have such diverse cultures & cuisine.

On a historical note, Thailand (Siam) was never colonised by any European
powers but it still had it's fair share of trade with neighbouring countries
& that's why you'll still find a Chinatown in Bangkok & soya sauce (as an
example) used in local dishes.

On a general note, immigration &/or migration of people plays an important
role in which Food & Cuisine evolves from country to country. That's why
there are many versions of fried rice & noodles etc. some cooked by people
who still uses the old recipes & techniques while others make them up to how
they like it or more the case, how their customers like it.

" "Frogleg" wrote
while Americans (and I didn't really
planned to be pushed into a chauvinistic corner) are beneath contempt
for enthusiastically embracing the contributions of the *many*
different groups who've come to this country over the past 3-4
centuries. Why is it a given that 290 million Americans subsist
entirely on Big Macs and bologna sandwiches, while *all* those living
in Paris, Tokyo, or New Delhi are completely 'uncontaminated' by
outside influence (except exquisitely pure ones) and dine on lotus?

Perhaps someone who has a better understanding of American Culture & History
might be better in providing you the answers. I often find that the further
you are away from your own country & culture, you tend to see things
clearer, if you're familiar with the term "can't see the wood for the
trees", you'll know what i mean. My own views on American Culture & Cuisine
are i'm afraid 'tainted' by what i see in the movies & TV, so i'm in no
position to comment on why "290 million Americans subsist entirely on Big
Macs and bologna sandwiches" but i can always speculate.


Rita (originally from Penang, Malaysia, now living in London)

Oh, can I envy you London? I ate mostly Indian food there. Pub grub
was filthy. My first lime pickle! Whoof! And I though New Mexico had
prepared me for hot. (Have a jar in the 'fridge now, purchased in
beneath-contempt USA. Have a recipe, too, and since limes seem to be
on sale now, might just give it a try.)

Good on you for giving it a try, you might want to have it with your Xmas
dinner, definetly gives it a lift.

DC.

"Frogleg" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 23:16:53 -0000, "ahem"
wrote:


" "Frogleg" wrote

I envy you the food experiences.

Don't envy the food experiences - OK you can't afford or don't want to
afford to travel, but, you can look on the internet, do some reading of
good
cook books - people here have a good selection of authentic favourites
which
they will recommend(I should know, I've lurked for ages!!!) and source
some
authentic ingredients and you can move away from a position of relative
ignorance! You can cook good food at home. You can cook authentic food at
home - just don't use the sauce mixes, the red gloopy stuff and the
preprepared deep fry in 2 inches of hot oil then serve with microwave for
2
mins rice!

1) Permit me to envy someone living in NYC (or DC or London or Sydney
or Hong Kong) their access to a zillion restaurants of every sort, and
plenty of places to buy ingredients for 'home' cooking.

I guess I am very fortunate, or I have had the fortune to make good choices.
I like living in London where there is genuine food (Brick Lane for food
from the Asian subcontinent etc etc etc) and some OK supermarkets and to
have travelled.

2) I can barely afford to keep the lights on. When I *did* have some
discretionary income, I toyed with the idea of flying to Amsterdam for
the weekend, mostly to go to some Indonesian resaturants and visit the
Rijksmuseum. I learned, however, that at that time, the museum was
closed from Saturday afternoon 'til Monday morning. Yes, I'd *like* to
be able to travel. I don't see why poverty should be interpreted as
"don't want to afford to travel."

You saw what I wrote - can't or don't want to - didn't make any assumptions
about your financial state. Didn't interpret from the info/ couldn't
anyway.... Did not mean an insult!

3) What you describe, searching the web, using the cookbooks I have
and those at the library, and haunting the two Asian (Korean/Thai)
markets in my city is precisely what I've been doing. My Indian
friends got quite a giggle out of my first attempt at dosa -- I'd
never had it at a restaurant. Believe me, you can go *way* wrong with
dosa.

I agree - when I lived in Penang, my attempts at English scones and cream
left a little to be desired ) and my friend at school brought minced beef
to a cooking class to make mince pies (sweet preserves of currants. raisins
and peel - no meat except for suet!)

4) In what post have I indicated that my own cooking is of the
assisted hamburger variety? That I use and am satisfied with packets
and boxes and jars I can m'wave?

Please! Don't take things personally - I was sticking up for you - some
people cook using packets and mixes and say it's authentic, just as some
Chinese takeaways serve red sweet gloop and say it's Chinese! So, yes, if
you use fresh ingredients and do research, it's good food and as authentic
as you can make it in your home town.


OK. Much of my cooking is American cooking. I like American cooking. I
like it in a wok; I like it in a pot. (Oh, geez -- sorry). I cook with
ingredients my mother never heard of. I enjoy a tiny Thai (-style)
restaurant where the cooks are Thai immigrants. I enjoy a long-lived
Afghan restaurant in Arlington, and an Ethiopian one in DC. I
researched recipes and bought a special pan for making 'imitation'
injera. Does an Ethiopian immigrant stop making 'Ethiopian' food when
he/she can't find tef?

Like American cooking - like Chinese American cooking, but it isn't
always
authentic! By the way - all these references to immigrants! Where are
your
folks from?

I am a documented descendent of Pocahontas and John Rolfe. I am about
as "white" as one can get, with nearly all identifiable ancestors
being (ouside of Pocahontas) English, Irish, and Scotch. Is it any
wonder I seek out other cusines? :-)

No wonder - just as I tried to make English food and French food etc etc!!
)

Also, with reference to Malay food - yes there is a fusion - read about
it -
it's interesting and probably an early example of fusing the best from
cultures, rather than lowering a cuisine to the lowest common denominator
for the lowest price/ highest profit margin!

If you want to talk about high profit margin, go to China.

Or to the US! Why China, out of interest?

"Read about it"? Didn't I just say I *did*? One of my questions is why
Malasians can adapt/include foods from China, India, and Europe and
create an "authentic" cuisine, while Americans (and I didn't really
planned to be pushed into a chauvinistic corner) are beneath contempt
for enthusiastically embracing the contributions of the *many*
different groups who've come to this country over the past 3-4
centuries. Why is it a given that 290 million Americans subsist
entirely on Big Macs and bologna sandwiches, while *all* those living
in Paris, Tokyo, or New Delhi are completely 'uncontaminated' by
outside influence (except exquisitely pure ones) and dine on lotus?

Rita (originally from Penang, Malaysia, now living in London)

Oh, can I envy you London? I ate mostly Indian food there. Pub grub
was filthy. My first lime pickle! Whoof! And I though New Mexico had
prepared me for hot. (Have a jar in the 'fridge now, purchased in
beneath-contempt USA. Have a recipe, too, and since limes seem to be
on sale now, might just give it a try.)

Pub grub is not always filthy now - some very good pubs near me and in the
suburbs (Berkshire in particular.....) Indian food is great in London. Malay
food - almost nonexistent.

Come on frogleg - let's swap recipes - this SHOULD be fun and educational!
Sometimes just fun, sometimes just educational, sometimes neither!!! ;-))

Rita

"Frogleg" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 02:00:44 GMT, "Peter Dy"
wrote:

We never talk about specific restaurants,
except for maybe recommendations. Again, I think your complaints are
misplaced--we don't do what you accuse us of doing.

Maybe not you, although you *did* accuse me of being un-Jeffersonian
for not traveling, and also, indirectly, of spending my money on an
SUV. :-)


Hehehe... Lo siento.


I'm *tired* of being told my enjoyment of
other-than-burger cusine is bugus because I *haven't* tasted "real"
Vietnamese or French or Northern Italian food in situ, so my delight,
too, is bogus. I might just open up a can of Franco-American
spaghetti, and forget about trying another (so-called) Thai recipe
that will *obviously* fall far short of Bangkok street food.


Who do you hang out with?! I have met people who often complain that some
other place has a better version, but I don't run into them often. And
usually they are people who don't cook.


[...]
So, which post was it here that raised your ire? I'm confused.
Bubbabob's
about Cantonese food having been "ruined in the 50's"? I think that was
perhaps clumsily worded, but it is a fact that Chinese restaurants had
menus
back then geared towards "Western tastes", with things the Chinese
running
the place never ate.

So help me out, here. Waitstaff in Chinese restaurants are all slim as
minnows, and the food served is *way* over the top with battered (?)
deep-fry and glutinous sauce. Do they eat *anything* on the menu, or
have some secret kitchen in the back, a la Trillin?


First, I was talking about Chinese restaurants in the 50's to the early
80's. As for now, they probably don't eat from the menu if it is a bad
Chinese restaurant.


[...]
Again, no one on this newsgroup has ever said you can't do what the hell
you
want in your kitchen. I've been here for over 3 years and I don't
remember
such a thing. You are making stuff up.

I have repeatedly typed "eat/buy" and "restaurant/home cooking" with
the same pooh-pooh response. Mostly from Ian, I guess. I can't enjoy
Thai food; I can only say I enjoy Thai food as prepared in the US.
Pardon me. OK. I don't like Mexican food. I like US Southwest
Mexican-ancestry food as prepared in certain New Mexico restaurants,
and some I make at home after 20 years in New Mexico. I don't like
Indian food, but food prepared from recipes in books and on web sites
(in English) with what I naively imagine to be Indian flavors.


To tell you the truth, I like topics like this, and would gladly discuss
it
further. I don't like, however, how you seem to be accusing us of things
we
don't do.

I do to. It's certainly provided a little activity here. :-) The
problem is, as in "a vast topic", it's a highly nuanced discussion. My
beef (!) is that I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that I
*can't* enjoy/like/appreciate what I experience because it's not the
Real Thing.


You go to an ethnic restaurant and enjoy the food. Then, someone of that
ethnicity invites you over for dinner, and the food they serve is way
different. You don't feel like false advertising or cultural
misrepresentaion was at work? I don't care if you like Chinese dishes with
brocolli or Mexican tacos with shredded cheddar cheese on top -- that
doesn't mean one can't easily learn about the Chinese or Mexican cuisine as
historical and cultural entities. So, yeah, for me it is in large part a
cultural thing; I like learning about other cultures. I don't like things
dumbed down to appeal to my "American tastes."


You said, for example, that "you can't get German bread in
the US." Well, yes you can. You can mail-order or have a friend send
some, for one thing. I'm not a German ('scuse me -- German-inspired,
pale imitation) food fan, but I'm willing to bet there are, somewhere
in the 50 states, a few communities of heavily German
ancestry/immigration where bread is made that is virtually
indistinguishable from that in the original country (or 2 or 6). You
can't *easily* get German bread in the US. Unless it's a function of
ambient yeast populations, as in SF sourdough, you can probably make
and eat German bread.


There is German bread here in the States that taste good, like German.
Still, they are nothing like freshly baked German breads. It has less to do
with any supposed "elitism" on my part, than the fact that flour, etc, in
Germany isn't the same as here. Also, German backeries are cranking out
bread non-stop for finicky customers; American backers of German bread
simply cannot hope to match such freshness and remain economically viable.

Still, when I write stuff like that, or read things similar, I make a note
in my mind that I need to check out that dish in the home country. It
becomes a quest. I will still eat American bread while I am here, but I
don't feel inferior not knowing the original.


You're right. We don't just report back on trips. Have you really been
following this group long? I don't think Steve has ever been to Vietnam
like I have, but he seems to know the cuisine better than I do. I don't
recall a traveler vs. non-traveler division on this group.

See Ian's postings.


Yeah, but see your original post, where you sounded sorta xenophobic, and
flag-waving. You said something like "I don't care if I ever taste
authentic foods from other cultures." You've since explained yourself in
greater detail. I really thought you had something against those who travel
outside of the US.


I started the thread this evolved from by a serious question about why
so many say authentic/correct Chinese food can't be made at home
because only restaurant stoves are powerful enough for the purpose.
And I never did get a sensible answer.


Hey! You never replied to my post. How was my answer not sensible?

You agreed with me. No need to follow up. Thank you?


So, you did, in fact, get a sensible answer.


I hope on going to Oaxaca again next summer. I met an American there
once
who drove down--it can be done. See ya there!

Enjoy.


You're not coming with me?! That was an invitation!

Peter

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 11:43:45 GMT, "Peter Dy"
wrote:


"Frogleg" wrote

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 02:00:44 GMT, "Peter Dy"
wrote:

[...]
Again, no one on this newsgroup has ever said you can't do what the hell
you
want in your kitchen. I've been here for over 3 years and I don't
remember
such a thing. You are making stuff up.

I have repeatedly typed "eat/buy" and "restaurant/home cooking" with
the same pooh-pooh response. Mostly from Ian, I guess. I can't enjoy
Thai food; I can only say I enjoy Thai food as prepared in the US.
Pardon me. OK. I don't like Mexican food. I like US Southwest
Mexican-ancestry food as prepared in certain New Mexico restaurants,
and some I make at home after 20 years in New Mexico. I don't like
Indian food, but food prepared from recipes in books and on web sites
(in English) with what I naively imagine to be Indian flavors.

I don't like, however, how you seem to be accusing us of things
we
don't do.

My
beef (!) is that I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that I
*can't* enjoy/like/appreciate what I experience because it's not the
Real Thing.


I don't care if you like Chinese dishes with
brocolli or Mexican tacos with shredded cheddar cheese on top -- that
doesn't mean one can't easily learn about the Chinese or Mexican cuisine as
historical and cultural entities. So, yeah, for me it is in large part a
cultural thing; I like learning about other cultures. I don't like things
dumbed down to appeal to my "American tastes."

Again, define "dumbed down" and "American tastes." I hate to sound
like a one-trick pony, but the example of chop suey keeps coming to
mind. It *was*, from all I understand, a creation of Chinese cooks for
Chinese customers. In the US. Some dumb, hungry, whitebread types
stumbled in and said, "gee -- this is good. What's it called?" and so
"mixed pieces" or "fried mixed pieces" was born. A little confusion
about the etymology. Certainly a case of "Americans" adapting to
Chinese tastes, rather than the reverse.

I admit a reluctance to even *try* what I think of as "icky stuff."
This includes animal feet of any description (unless crab claws count
as feet). I don't like animal fat (except crisp bacon -- go figure). I
like 'smooth' things with no surprises. No KFC for me. So are my
tastes "American" or personally idiosyncratic? I like venison. I adore
spicy-hot anywhere it can reasonably be applied. Garlic, ginger,
chile, lime pickle, kim chee. I often make an "Indonesian" beef stew
with cinnamon, clove, and cardomom. I love cilantro almost anywhere. I
never found any recipes for bitter melon (which I grew) that seemed
worth the trouble, but it's a very interesting veg.

I guess what I resent is having a huge population with a vast variety
of food preferences lumped into a know-nothing group with no taste
whatsoever. Sure, there's the mac&cheese, "gimme a nice steak and
potato" crowd. (I don't mind a nice steak and potato myself), but is
the whole country assumed to have the same taste?

What's so awful about broccoli in "Chinese" food? Yes, it's of
European origin, and thus not "authentic." What about chiles? Or
tomatoes? Cheddar in tacos? You have a point. But given the
availability of queso fresca, one must make do. It may not be
"authentic" to make enchiladas with ricotta and spinach, but it's a
pretty tasty adaptation.

Still, when I write stuff like that, or read things similar, I make a note
in my mind that I need to check out that dish in the home country. It
becomes a quest. I will still eat American bread while I am here, but I
don't feel inferior not knowing the original.

?? You want to rewind that sentence? :-) Did you perhaps mean you
have really enjoyed German bread in situ? And maintain the
quality/taste there is, in general and readily available, superior? I
agree with you entirely. Bread here (SE corner of Virginia) is
universally dismal. I made a special trip to a bakery 'famous' for its
"French" bread. Crispy crust (for half a day) and cotton interior.
Perfectly ghastly. However, I *know* I can get good bread in the SF
Bay area, and I'm fairly sure I could find good bread in NYC or
Detroit or New Orleans or many midwestern towns.

Yeah, but see your original post, where you sounded sorta xenophobic, and
flag-waving. You said something like "I don't care if I ever taste
authentic foods from other cultures." You've since explained yourself in
greater detail. I really thought you had something against those who travel
outside of the US.

Wrong! I said "Much 'authentic' cuisine is something I frankly have
no desire to sample. I can go to my grave quite satistifed without
ever having sampled chicken feet in any form." Note the *much*.
Perhaps it should have been "some" instead. Given a menu with tripe a
la mode de Caen and, say, boeuf en daube a la provencale, I'd pick the
boeuf. My Chinese step-neice says she doesn't care for cheese. She
didn't grow up with cheese. She finds it odd that it's included in so
many western dishes. Is she eating "watered-down" western food by
choosing to avoid cheese?

I would *love* to experience many dishes in their original locations.
I enjoy reading about others' dining in France or Vietnam or Jakarta.
I'm also tickled that I can buy (some) ingredients from all over the
world, and visit (a few) restaurants with interesting and different
food. I *don't* like being told everything I taste or cook is
distinctly inferior to the Real Thing. Or that I can't say I like Thai
food, only a watered-down, inferior, Thai-American imitation.

What, in fact, *is* "watered down"? I very much doubt *all* Thai food
is full of 'hot' ('though I love what is). Is it "watered down" that
many Americans will dribble soy sauce over their plate in a Chinese
restaurant? I confess (again) that I ask for mushrooms (canned) and
other fungus be omitted from my hot&sour soup at #1 Kitchen. To me,
the flavor (of the fungus) is less important than the texture (similar
to squid/octopus -- like rubber bands that expand upon chewing). I
*have* had tender squid, but not often. And it's not something I seek
out.

If I understood what "American" tastes were supposed to be, maybe I
could explain myself better.

I hope on going to Oaxaca again next summer. I met an American there
once
who drove down--it can be done. See ya there!

Enjoy.

You're not coming with me?! That was an invitation!

Thanks. I'd love to. Find me a job first. You gonna post in
alt.food.mexican? I'm *inspired* by rollybrook.com (see:

http://www.rollybrook.com/tamales.htm

for one starting point.

Now, back to afa -- should I just overwinter my lemon grass it its
pot, or maybe dig up and put in water for new shoots indoors? Too bad
I can't grow water chestnuts. :-)

"Frogleg" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 11:43:45 GMT, "Peter Dy"
wrote:
[...]
My
beef (!) is that I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that I
*can't* enjoy/like/appreciate what I experience because it's not the
Real Thing.


I don't care if you like Chinese dishes with
brocolli or Mexican tacos with shredded cheddar cheese on top -- that
doesn't mean one can't easily learn about the Chinese or Mexican cuisine
as
historical and cultural entities. So, yeah, for me it is in large part a
cultural thing; I like learning about other cultures. I don't like
things
dumbed down to appeal to my "American tastes."

Again, define "dumbed down" and "American tastes."


I know lots of people and have good friends who aren't interested in food at
all. There is nothing unusual in that. Are you interested in food or what?
Do you really not know what "dumbed down" might be? Dumbed down is: "Gee,
even though there are Chinese vegetables pouring out into the streets in the
grocery stores 3 blocks away, and even though the restaurant next door
serves Chinese vegetables, Americans don't like them. So let's put
vegetables they are familiar with on the menu instead. And lets mix them up
with the meat, so it makes them feel like the dish is healthy. And let's
use
basically the same sauce for every dish, since they don't know what
"fish-flavored" dishes are supposed to taste like anyway. And let's stick
to beef, chicken, and shrimp. And let's make it all stir-fry dishes."

And please note, I've been to Chinese restaurants in Virginia, and I said
they were *excellent*. San Francisco, Seattle, New York and Sacramento have
excellent Chinese restaurants. Even Cleveland has some pretty good ones.


I hate to sound
like a one-trick pony, but the example of chop suey keeps coming to
mind. It *was*, from all I understand, a creation of Chinese cooks for
Chinese customers. In the US. Some dumb, hungry, whitebread types
stumbled in and said, "gee -- this is good. What's it called?" and so
"mixed pieces" or "fried mixed pieces" was born. A little confusion
about the etymology. Certainly a case of "Americans" adapting to
Chinese tastes, rather than the reverse.


Yeah, according to Anderson, there supposedly is a "chop suey" dish in a
part of Canton. But that has to do with Gold Rush era food. I was talking
about restaurants in from the 50's-80's, when there were many more Chinese
in the US -- I don't think they knew chop suey except as an American-Chinese
dish. Check out Ken Hom's "Easy Family Recipes from a Chinese-American
Childhood," for interesting comments on restaurants in those days. (He grew
up in Chicago's Chinatown.)


I admit a reluctance to even *try* what I think of as "icky stuff."
This includes animal feet of any description (unless crab claws count
as feet). I don't like animal fat (except crisp bacon -- go figure). I
like 'smooth' things with no surprises. No KFC for me. So are my
tastes "American" or personally idiosyncratic?


Both. I expect the meat in my tacos to have some good chunks of fat in
them. So I think your tastes are "American" in that instance. But if you
don't like feet or grasshoppers, your loss; doesn't mean you aren't
"authentic"


[...]
I guess what I resent is having a huge population with a vast variety
of food preferences lumped into a know-nothing group with no taste
whatsoever. Sure, there's the mac&cheese, "gimme a nice steak and
potato" crowd. (I don't mind a nice steak and potato myself), but is
the whole country assumed to have the same taste?


Well, again, I don't think I was complaining about that -- I didn't start
the topic. Like I said, some people just aren't food nerds, or at least
food nerds when it comes to Asian food or other ethnic foods. I like
reading baseball newsgroup messages by guys who know a lot about stats.
Some people resent it, saying they are ruining the fun or whatever. I just
view it as their hobby, I make note of what they say, but I enjoy baseball
games in my own way. I'm interested in baseball stats, but not enough to
make it my hobby.


What's so awful about broccoli in "Chinese" food? Yes, it's of
European origin, and thus not "authentic." What about chiles? Or
tomatoes?


If I go to a Chinese restaurant, I want to eat Chinese vegetables. That is
what I eat at home; they are not hard to get. Safeway and other grocery
stores in my town now carry Chinese eggplants, yardlong beans, bitter melon,
etc. So if I see broccoli on the menu, the rest of the food is almost
always dumbed down (see above for examples). That is different from saying
the Chinese cuisine won't allow broccoli.


Still, when I write stuff like that, or read things similar, I make a
note
in my mind that I need to check out that dish in the home country. It
becomes a quest. I will still eat American bread while I am here, but I
don't feel inferior not knowing the original.

?? You want to rewind that sentence? :-) Did you perhaps mean you
have really enjoyed German bread in situ? And maintain the
quality/taste there is, in general and readily available, superior?


If you buy a loaf of extra-crusty bread (Krustenbrot is one name for it)
from a German bakery in Germany, it will taste different on day one and
different yet again on day two. From days 3-5 it is different again. You
can get German bread in the States in plastic bags that taste pretty much
like a German bread in Germany in the day 3-5 stage. So, let's say I
had never been to Germany. I would make a note to check out to see how
special the bread is over there. I would not stop eating the packaged
American bread if I liked it and would not bemoan my lot and think the other
person elitist.


I
agree with you entirely. Bread here (SE corner of Virginia) is
universally dismal. I made a special trip to a bakery 'famous' for its
"French" bread. Crispy crust (for half a day) and cotton interior.
Perfectly ghastly. However, I *know* I can get good bread in the SF
Bay area, and I'm fairly sure I could find good bread in NYC or
Detroit or New Orleans or many midwestern towns.


OK! And that's not to say that SE Virginia doesn't have its own special,
tasty dishes. They just don't have good bread.


Yeah, but see your original post, where you sounded sorta xenophobic, and
flag-waving. You said something like "I don't care if I ever taste
authentic foods from other cultures." You've since explained yourself in
greater detail. I really thought you had something against those who
travel
outside of the US.

Wrong! I said "Much 'authentic' cuisine is something I frankly have
no desire to sample. I can go to my grave quite satistifed without
ever having sampled chicken feet in any form." Note the *much*.
Perhaps it should have been "some" instead. Given a menu with tripe a
la mode de Caen and, say, boeuf en daube a la provencale, I'd pick the
boeuf.


Ok, but you were using a idiosyncratic use of the word "authentic". You are
just squeamish about certain food items you aren't used to -- I don't
like intestines either. But "exotic" food
items is not necessarily the same as "authentic." Even you wrote "authentic
cuisine";
cuisine isn't the same as particular food items or animal parts. I have run
across people who don't like rice, for instance: "Looks like maggots." I
didn't know to which extreme you went.


[...]
I would *love* to experience many dishes in their original locations.
I enjoy reading about others' dining in France or Vietnam or Jakarta.
I'm also tickled that I can buy (some) ingredients from all over the
world, and visit (a few) restaurants with interesting and different
food. I *don't* like being told everything I taste or cook is
distinctly inferior to the Real Thing. Or that I can't say I like Thai
food, only a watered-down, inferior, Thai-American imitation.


Well, I'm not telling you everything you taste or cook is inferior. And
Thai restaurants in the US are in general pretty good. Again, I don't think
anyone here is telling you you don't know about authentic cuisines.


What, in fact, *is* "watered down"? I very much doubt *all* Thai food
is full of 'hot' ('though I love what is).


See above. It differs for different cuisines. I think Thai restaurants
have declined in quality the last 10 years, but that's another long
thread...


Is it "watered down" that
many Americans will dribble soy sauce over their plate in a Chinese
restaurant?


No, certainly not. That is simply grotesque. Yuck!!


I confess (again) that I ask for mushrooms (canned) and
other fungus be omitted from my hot&sour soup at #1 Kitchen. To me,
the flavor (of the fungus) is less important than the texture (similar
to squid/octopus -- like rubber bands that expand upon chewing). I
*have* had tender squid, but not often. And it's not something I seek
out.


You are from the Bay Area, but are squeamish about squid, chicken feet, and
pig hocks? What happened?


I hope on going to Oaxaca again next summer. I met an American there
once
who drove down--it can be done. See ya there!

Enjoy.

You're not coming with me?! That was an invitation!

Thanks. I'd love to. Find me a job first.


Fine.... You use words like "in situ" and don't have a job?

Hey, it could be like a date! You meet me here near the border, and we
drive down together. Oaxaca is a beautiful, colonial town that holds on to
lots of old traditions, especially when it comes to cooking. We'd both be
taking Spanish classes during the day, and in the eveninings we'd meet on
the classic zócalo for dinner and cervezas. And on weekends, we could head
down to the coast, to the beautiful beaches of Puerto Escondido or Puerto
Angel, where they have awesome beach-side food service, with the best
shirmps and octopus you've ever eaten. The Pulpo al Mojo de Ajo [octopus
with garlic] is a huge plate of plump, tender chunks of octopus sauteed with
garlic -- the freshest, juiciest pieces of octopus you've ever had. And
there is the beautiful beach and the warm sun; and at night, we could dance
salsa 'til the wee hours of the morning...

Unless you are a guy.


You gonna post in
alt.food.mexican?


I've posted there and I do read it from time to time. But the only report I
have was on this newsgroup. I guess it is because I don't cook Mexican at
home.

Peter

On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 09:30:01 -0000, "ahem"
wrote:

Come on frogleg - let's swap recipes - this SHOULD be fun and educational!
Sometimes just fun, sometimes just educational, sometimes neither!!! ;-))

To get this out of non-interested faces, my e-mail is
frogleg-at-hotmail dot com

Don't know if I can supply interesting recipes -- I'm a foodfan but a
rotten cook. Most of my successes have been shear chance and many
times unrepeatable (I mean that I can't replicate them, not that
they're too awful to pronounce).

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 12:25:17 GMT, "Peter Dy"
wrote:


"Frogleg" wrote

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 11:43:45 GMT, "Peter Dy"
wrote:
[...]
My
beef (!) is that I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that I
*can't* enjoy/like/appreciate what I experience because it's not the
Real Thing.

I don't care if you like Chinese dishes with
brocolli or Mexican tacos with shredded cheddar cheese on top. I don't like
things
dumbed down to appeal to my "American tastes."

Again, define "dumbed down" and "American tastes."

I know lots of people and have good friends who aren't interested in food at
all. There is nothing unusual in that. Are you interested in food or what?

Yep. Grew up mostly whitebread and was slowly educated. Continuing, I
hope.

Do you really not know what "dumbed down" might be? Dumbed down is: "Gee,
even though there are Chinese vegetables pouring out into the streets in the
grocery stores 3 blocks away, and even though the restaurant next door
serves Chinese vegetables, Americans don't like them. So let's put
vegetables they are familiar with on the menu instead. And lets mix them up
with the meat, so it makes them feel like the dish is healthy. And let's
use
basically the same sauce for every dish, since they don't know what
"fish-flavored" dishes are supposed to taste like anyway. And let's stick
to beef, chicken, and shrimp. And let's make it all stir-fry dishes."

Wow! Let me help you deal with your anger. :-) Well, baby corn sure
can't be "authentic" Chinese. I think you're over-generalizing (as in
fact, I am also very occasionally guilty of). I know *heaps* of
non-foodie types. Put a single piece of Anaheim chile in a bowl of
melted Velveeta, and they protest they can't stand "hot" foods. There
are also the "why should I pay $X for a steak when I can get one at
Safeway for $Y?" types. But they're not the whole country. I really
haven't had a great deal of exposure to World Cuisine. I feel my
interest is legitimate because I've practically never experienced a
meal of 'new' foods I didn't take to. Not every dish, to be sure.

I resent "dumbed down" and "American tastes." One sauce? I dunno. One
food view attributed to 290 people? I don't think so. Else we wouldn't
have any restaurants but IHOP and Pizza Hut. Which we most certainly
do.

I hate to sound
like a one-trick pony, but the example of chop suey keeps coming to
mind.

Yeah, according to Anderson, there supposedly is a "chop suey" dish in a
part of Canton. But that has to do with Gold Rush era food. I was talking
about restaurants in from the 50's-80's, when there were many more Chinese
in the US -- I don't think they knew chop suey except as an American-Chinese
dish. Check out Ken Hom's "Easy Family Recipes from a Chinese-American
Childhood," for interesting comments on restaurants in those days. (He grew
up in Chicago's Chinatown.)

Just make me envious. :-) Aside from time in the Bay area, where I
was trying to overcome my fear of mushrooms (I did), I've never been
close to a Chinatown.

I admit a reluctance to even *try* what I think of as "icky stuff."
This includes animal feet of any description (unless crab claws count
as feet). I don't like animal fat (except crisp bacon -- go figure). I
like 'smooth' things with no surprises. No KFC for me. So are my
tastes "American" or personally idiosyncratic?


Both. I expect the meat in my tacos to have some good chunks of fat in
them. So I think your tastes are "American" in that instance. But if you
don't like feet or grasshoppers, your loss; doesn't mean you aren't
"authentic"

I am *very* authentic. I use the term because it's what so many others
(perhaps not here, but elsewhere) use to refer to the only way food
can be appreciated. I have a lot of trouble with gray area. I know
Elvis on black velvet is inferior to Van Gogh, but I'm not quite sure
why. Originality? Time? What argument can I use to tell people who
enjoy tuna hotdish that their experience is, um, limited? You can lead
a non-foodie to gorganzola, but you can't make them eat it without
making a face.


[...]
I guess what I resent is having a huge population with a vast variety
of food preferences lumped into a know-nothing group with no taste
whatsoever. Sure, there's the mac&cheese, "gimme a nice steak and
potato" crowd. (I don't mind a nice steak and potato myself), but is
the whole country assumed to have the same taste?


Well, again, I don't think I was complaining about that -- I didn't start
the topic. Like I said, some people just aren't food nerds, or at least
food nerds when it comes to Asian food or other ethnic foods. I like
reading baseball newsgroup messages by guys who know a lot about stats.
Some people resent it, saying they are ruining the fun or whatever. I just
view it as their hobby, I make note of what they say, but I enjoy baseball
games in my own way. I'm interested in baseball stats, but not enough to
make it my hobby.

Check one of the coffee groups for nuance. Sheesh!


What's so awful about broccoli in "Chinese" food? Yes, it's of
European origin, and thus not "authentic." What about chiles? Or
tomatoes?


If I go to a Chinese restaurant, I want to eat Chinese vegetables. That is
what I eat at home; they are not hard to get. Safeway and other grocery
stores in my town now carry Chinese eggplants, yardlong beans, bitter melon,
etc. So if I see broccoli on the menu, the rest of the food is almost
always dumbed down (see above for examples). That is different from saying
the Chinese cuisine won't allow broccoli.

So whadaya do with bitter melon? I grew it, and it's a nifty-looking
veg, but I never got any recipes that seemed worth the bother. Bok
choi, OTOH, is divine. Ever have any winged beans? Beautiful growing
and extremely architectural for cooking.

agree with you entirely. Bread here (SE corner of Virginia) is
universally dismal. I made a special trip to a bakery 'famous' for its
"French" bread. Crispy crust (for half a day) and cotton interior.
Perfectly ghastly.

OK! And that's not to say that SE Virginia doesn't have its own special,
tasty dishes. They just don't have good bread.

Biscuits. Ham. Ham biscuits.

I would *love* to experience many dishes in their original locations.
I enjoy reading about others' dining in France or Vietnam or Jakarta.
I'm also tickled that I can buy (some) ingredients from all over the
world, and visit (a few) restaurants with interesting and different
food. I *don't* like being told everything I taste or cook is
distinctly inferior to the Real Thing. Or that I can't say I like Thai
food, only a watered-down, inferior, Thai-American imitation.


Well, I'm not telling you everything you taste or cook is inferior. And
Thai restaurants in the US are in general pretty good. Again, I don't think
anyone here is telling you you don't know about authentic cuisines.

Backpedal. I don't. But I think we get a pretty fair sampling of a lot
of different food things. Friend in Detroit talks about going to a
Polish deli. I read about Italian and Mexican markets. There's a fish
market down the street where I see still-flapping critters delivered
(although the whiting is frozen). The Korean/Thai store is authentic
enough to be maddening (no prices marked, but cheapish shallots and
lemon grass I can grow. And kim chee. I *do* like kim chee.)


Is it "watered down" that
many Americans will dribble soy sauce over their plate in a Chinese
restaurant?

No, certainly not. That is simply grotesque. Yuck!!

OTOH, simply coming 'round to soy sauce may be a leap. But I gotta say
the "condiments" in cheap Chinese restaurants are beyond description.

Someone told me that mustard (dry powder with water) would taste
hotter with a little sugar added. Opinion?

I confess (again) that I ask for mushrooms (canned) and
other fungus be omitted from my hot&sour soup at #1 Kitchen. To me,
the flavor (of the fungus) is less important than the texture (similar
to squid/octopus -- like rubber bands that expand upon chewing).

You are from the Bay Area, but are squeamish about squid, chicken feet, and
pig hocks? What happened?

Wasn't a foodie then. How often do *you* cook/eat pigs' feet? Or ears.
Geez, assisted hamburger begins to sound like pate en croute in
comparison.

I hope on going to Oaxaca again next summer. I met an American there
once
who drove down--it can be done. See ya there!

Thanks. I'd love to. Find me a job first.

You use words like "in situ" and don't have a job?

Go figure. Watch me recductio ad absurdum.

"Frogleg" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 12:25:17 GMT, "Peter Dy"
wrote:


"Frogleg" wrote

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 11:43:45 GMT, "Peter Dy"
wrote:
[...]
Do you really not know what "dumbed down" might be? Dumbed down is:
"Gee,
even though there are Chinese vegetables pouring out into the streets in
the
grocery stores 3 blocks away, and even though the restaurant next door
serves Chinese vegetables, Americans don't like them. So let's put
vegetables they are familiar with on the menu instead. And lets mix them
up
with the meat, so it makes them feel like the dish is healthy. And let's
use
basically the same sauce for every dish, since they don't know what
"fish-flavored" dishes are supposed to taste like anyway. And let's
stick
to beef, chicken, and shrimp. And let's make it all stir-fry dishes."

Wow! Let me help you deal with your anger. :-) Well, baby corn sure
can't be "authentic" Chinese. I think you're over-generalizing (as in
fact, I am also very occasionally guilty of). I know *heaps* of
non-foodie types. Put a single piece of Anaheim chile in a bowl of
melted Velveeta, and they protest they can't stand "hot" foods. There
are also the "why should I pay $X for a steak when I can get one at
Safeway for $Y?" types. But they're not the whole country.


Are you a troll? Look, I've already said there are excellent Chinese
restaurants out there, including in the very state you live in. There are
also crappy, dumbed down restaurants out there. That means, obviously, that
there are *Americans* who frequent both types of places. So what am I
generalizing about? I don't get it.


[...]
I resent "dumbed down" and "American tastes." One sauce? I dunno.


Restaurant owners/worker have told me, and I've read it, that they want to
serve vegetables Americans are used to. I'm sure if you asked diners in
such restaurants, they would say the same: I prefer American vegetables.
So, if you don't want to call that "Americanized", what, pray tell, do you
suggest we call it?

If I know what Fish-Flavored Pork is supposed to be and what it's supposed
to taste like, and a restaurant serves me a "Fish-Flavored Pork" dish that
bears little resemblance to the real thing, and instead seems to have the
same sauce that they used for the fried noodle dish (which they should have
used for that dish either), then I say that they have "dumbed it down" for
the diners. What do you want to call it?


[...]
I admit a reluctance to even *try* what I think of as "icky stuff."
This includes animal feet of any description (unless crab claws count
as feet). I don't like animal fat (except crisp bacon -- go figure). I
like 'smooth' things with no surprises. No KFC for me. So are my
tastes "American" or personally idiosyncratic?


Both. I expect the meat in my tacos to have some good chunks of fat in
them. So I think your tastes are "American" in that instance. But if
you
don't like feet or grasshoppers, your loss; doesn't mean you aren't
"authentic"

I am *very* authentic. I use the term because it's what so many others
(perhaps not here, but elsewhere) use to refer to the only way food
can be appreciated.


I disagree. I don't think people use the term the way you do, in most
instances. Many times, I've been to great, authentic dim sum places with
diverse groups of people, including non-foodie, "whitebreads", to use your
term. They ipso facto like and eat authentic food, even if they didn't care
if it was "authentic" or not. Did they eat the chicken feet? No. Did they
eat the tripe? No. But they liked the radish cakes, the shao mai, the
xiaolongbaozi, the har gow, and the list goes on. In other words, authentic
dim sum is *not* eating chicken feet. You should try them though, as they
are super tasty, especially if they are freshly made and piping hot.

My ex-girlfriends sister (Taiwanese) once served us rice and stir-fried
chicken hearts for dinner. I dislike innards, so I had a hard time eating
just chicken hearts. Her sister, obviously a little upset, especially since
she had cooked it, after all, said I was too American. She was probably
right, but I think it was more that she was upset about me not eating than
any strongly-held belief that I was inauthentic. I regret that incident;
that was un-Buddhist of me, since I should eat whatever is placed before
me...


[...]
I guess what I resent is having a huge population with a vast variety
of food preferences lumped into a know-nothing group with no taste
whatsoever. Sure, there's the mac&cheese, "gimme a nice steak and
potato" crowd. (I don't mind a nice steak and potato myself), but is
the whole country assumed to have the same taste?


Well, again, I don't think I was complaining about that -- I didn't start
the topic. Like I said, some people just aren't food nerds, or at least
food nerds when it comes to Asian food or other ethnic foods. I like
reading baseball newsgroup messages by guys who know a lot about stats.
Some people resent it, saying they are ruining the fun or whatever. I
just
view it as their hobby, I make note of what they say, but I enjoy
baseball
games in my own way. I'm interested in baseball stats, but not enough to
make it my hobby.

Check one of the coffee groups for nuance. Sheesh!


Hehe, yes, good example. I think they are very knowledgable, but often
*way* off. I prefer European style coffee (like in Paris or Italy). Some
of the coffee they think is the best, tastes like crap! I took an Italian
girl to this cafe in Seattle that roasts their own beans etc, and she spit
the espresso back into the cup, she found it so vile.


What's so awful about broccoli in "Chinese" food? Yes, it's of
European origin, and thus not "authentic." What about chiles? Or
tomatoes?


If I go to a Chinese restaurant, I want to eat Chinese vegetables. That
is
what I eat at home; they are not hard to get. Safeway and other grocery
stores in my town now carry Chinese eggplants, yardlong beans, bitter
melon,
etc. So if I see broccoli on the menu, the rest of the food is almost
always dumbed down (see above for examples). That is different from
saying
the Chinese cuisine won't allow broccoli.

So whadaya do with bitter melon? I grew it, and it's a nifty-looking
veg, but I never got any recipes that seemed worth the bother.


Stir-fried with chicken and black beans is good. It's not a hard recipe at
all. I make a Thai curry with them and sliced pork, not hard either. Did
you just let them rot, or what? Lol.


Bok
choi, OTOH, is divine. Ever have any winged beans? Beautiful growing
and extremely architectural for cooking.


I *love* winged beans! You let them rot too?!?! They are very hard to find
in stores.


agree with you entirely. Bread here (SE corner of Virginia) is
universally dismal. I made a special trip to a bakery 'famous' for its
"French" bread. Crispy crust (for half a day) and cotton interior.
Perfectly ghastly.

OK! And that's not to say that SE Virginia doesn't have its own special,
tasty dishes. They just don't have good bread.

Biscuits. Ham. Ham biscuits.


Hehe. What about grits?


I would *love* to experience many dishes in their original locations.
I enjoy reading about others' dining in France or Vietnam or Jakarta.
I'm also tickled that I can buy (some) ingredients from all over the
world, and visit (a few) restaurants with interesting and different
food. I *don't* like being told everything I taste or cook is
distinctly inferior to the Real Thing. Or that I can't say I like Thai
food, only a watered-down, inferior, Thai-American imitation.


Well, I'm not telling you everything you taste or cook is inferior. And
Thai restaurants in the US are in general pretty good. Again, I don't
think
anyone here is telling you you don't know about authentic cuisines.

Backpedal. I don't. But I think we get a pretty fair sampling of a lot
of different food things. Friend in Detroit talks about going to a
Polish deli. I read about Italian and Mexican markets. There's a fish
market down the street where I see still-flapping critters delivered
(although the whiting is frozen). The Korean/Thai store is authentic
enough to be maddening (no prices marked, but cheapish shallots and
lemon grass I can grow. And kim chee. I *do* like kim chee.)


Well, stay around on this group. Lots of great info. People are real nice
around here too.


Someone told me that mustard (dry powder with water) would taste
hotter with a little sugar added. Opinion?


Don't know. Never made it. I'm sure someone here has an opinion, but
starting a new thread for that topic would get it more attention.

Peter

[...]

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 05:45:16 GMT, "Peter Dy"
wrote:

"Frogleg" wrote

etc., etc.

This is getting out of hand. We're going to have a novel posted soon.

I resent "dumbed down" and "American tastes." One sauce? I dunno.

Restaurant owners/worker have told me, and I've read it, that they want to
serve vegetables Americans are used to. I'm sure if you asked diners in
such restaurants, they would say the same: I prefer American vegetables.
So, if you don't want to call that "Americanized", what, pray tell, do you
suggest we call it?

Is the problem American tastes, restauranteurs' expectations, or
availability of ingredients? You imply the second, and assume the
first. I'm trying to think of any time I've been served strange veg
that were distinctly off-putting. Nope. Can't think of any (although
my experience is limited). Can't say I'm crazy about 'baby corn.'

If I know what Fish-Flavored Pork is supposed to be and what it's supposed
to taste like, and a restaurant serves me a "Fish-Flavored Pork" dish that
bears little resemblance to the real thing, and instead seems to have the
same sauce that they used for the fried noodle dish (which they should have
used for that dish either), then I say that they have "dumbed it down" for
the diners. What do you want to call it?

Fish-Flavored Pork? *That* sounds interesting. Again, you mention "the
restaurant served me." Maybe there *are* too many bad restaurants in
the US. I expect there are equally bad ones in Madrid and Bangalore,
but wouldn't Chinese food be equally "dumbed down" for the Spanish or
Indians?

My complaint (one of them) is that adaptations to local tastes and
ingredients is (sometimes) judged artful adaptation in the rest of the
world, but "dumbing down" when it comes to the US. With this
discussion, I *do* think I'm missing something by not being able to
taste particularly actractive cuisines on their home ground. But I
refuse to believe that my access to "Mexican" and "Thai" and
"Pakistani" food is beneath contempt, nor my efforts to explore with
the help of cookbooks and delightful web sites, in my own kitchen.
Geez -- I searched for *years* to find palm sugar for my Indonesian
beef stew recipe. Got it, too. Not that I think it makes a great deal
of difference. I don't even think the variations of tamarind I've
tried (block, paste in a nearly impenetrable jar, and laboriously
gleaned from seedpods) is critical. The special flavor, IMHO, is the
combination of 'sweet' spices in a meat dish.

I resent being told (implied) that I'm "dumb" for liking green papaya
salad, because it isn't the *right* green papaya salad. Or that I can
never make *proper* dosa outside the Indian subcontinent. Nor can I
say I like Indian or Thai or Chinese cooking because I've never
experienced the real thing. And I don't/can't get the right soy or
fish sauce. OK. I'll keep seeking recipes and ingredients and growing
things and making curry with canned cocount milk and lurk for
possiblities that please me and won't earn the scorn of afa'rs.

"Frogleg" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 09:30:01 -0000, "ahem"
wrote:

Come on frogleg - let's swap recipes - this SHOULD be fun and
educational!
Sometimes just fun, sometimes just educational, sometimes neither!!! ;-))

To get this out of non-interested faces, my e-mail is
frogleg-at-hotmail dot com

This thread is getting more responses than any other I've seen for ages - I
think it's still interesting as a group discussion!


Don't know if I can supply interesting recipes -- I'm a foodfan but a
rotten cook. Most of my successes have been shear chance and many
times unrepeatable (I mean that I can't replicate them, not that
they're too awful to pronounce).

Lots of us cook in ways that are unrepeatable - good and bad.....like a
great laksa dish I made a few months ago - I don't know why, but I can't
make it quite as good again! Same basic ingredients, same source for
coconut, same fishy additions, but it's missing something! But for the main
if you share recipes, they can be tweaked and made better/ different by
others in the group?

Rita

"Frogleg" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 05:45:16 GMT, "Peter Dy"
wrote:

"Frogleg" wrote

etc., etc.

This is getting out of hand. We're going to have a novel posted soon.

I resent "dumbed down" and "American tastes." One sauce? I dunno.

Restaurant owners/worker have told me, and I've read it, that they want
to
serve vegetables Americans are used to. I'm sure if you asked diners in
such restaurants, they would say the same: I prefer American vegetables.
So, if you don't want to call that "Americanized", what, pray tell, do
you
suggest we call it?

Is the problem American tastes, restauranteurs' expectations, or
availability of ingredients? You imply the second, and assume the
first.


You didn't answer the question. You also seem to have poor reading skills,
as I specifically said that availability wasn't the problem: "there are
Chinese vegetables pouring out into the streets in the grocery stores 3
blocks away."


[...]
If I know what Fish-Flavored Pork is supposed to be and what it's
supposed
to taste like, and a restaurant serves me a "Fish-Flavored Pork" dish
that
bears little resemblance to the real thing, and instead seems to have the
same sauce that they used for the fried noodle dish (which they should
have
used for that dish either), then I say that they have "dumbed it down"
for
the diners. What do you want to call it?

Fish-Flavored Pork? *That* sounds interesting. Again, you mention "the
restaurant served me." Maybe there *are* too many bad restaurants in
the US. I expect there are equally bad ones in Madrid and Bangalore,
but wouldn't Chinese food be equally