"Tea" wrote in message
...

"Peter Dy" wrote in message
m...

"Dan Logcher" wrote in message
...
Peter Dy wrote:

"Tea" wrote in message
...
[...]

Another way of convincing him- fat goth bois don't look good in
vinyl

pants,

but eating food that looks to many Americans as if it came from a
Klingon
diner is very cool indeed.



Hehe! That's one of the funnier suggestions I've seen for
convincing
people
to keep slim. Is "bois" a typo? Or is it like "rulez"?

Anyway, I don't think it is true that not eating vegetables makes
one
fat.
Doesn't it have to do with caloric intake? I thought that in some
cultures
vegetables are rarely eaten, yet the people aren't fat -- I'm
thinking
of
Eskimos and Tibetans.

Yes, but neither of the cultures have booming populations.


I don't understand.

And it seems like the Tibetans do have a birth rate (14 per thousand)
that
is higher than western European countries and higher than that of
Chinese.
(Though this is only after Tibet was incorporated into the PRC. There
life
expectancy has also jumped up by 30 years after the Chinese took over.
Due
to greater exposure to vegetables?)

I was just saying that if one eats 2 bowls of rice with meat every day
for
lunch and dinner, while someone else is eating salads laden with fatty
dressings, followed by a steak, steamed brocolli, and a buttered baked
potato for lunch and dinner, that the latter will get fatter due to
higher
caloric intake, even though vegetables are part of the latter's diet.


Peter


But Tibet actually proves what I'm saying!
Starches and lots of meat will make people fat.


But that's what most Tibetans eat! Butter-rich tsampa and yak meat. Even
the Dalai Lama.


Those starches can come in
the form of heavily sugared and oiled salad dressings out of a bottle and
the meat can be a Wendy's special. If you have a high caloric intake (and
the way most of us eat, we do)


Hey, who's "we"?


you'll get fat. But the Demoness wasn't
asking about how to serve her husband Seven Seas salad dressing- if you
slather your salad with that, you're not going to lose weight. The same
thing applies to tempura- frying veggies after battering them and making
that a staple of one's diet is dangerous.
Luckily, no one in Tibet eats that way.


Amen.


Many Tibetans also get constant
exercize, which is important to maintaining weight loss and keeping muscle
tone.


True.


But are a lot of people fooling themselves when they pour the dressing
on the chicken Ceasar salad? Yes. Read the salad dressing label- one is
only supposed to use a small amount. Actually, it's cheaper and better to
use you own, which won't contain salts, sugars, or starches.

All of this ignores that a grwon man ought to be able to eat vegetables
without his wife 'hiding them'.


I agree. But we don't know if he is fat or not. If he isn't, maybe we're
just graping at trendy, "heathty eating" propaganda.


As a culture I think we are often way too
indulgent about food- our bodies crave sweets and fats, and so we now put
both in everything to near exclusion of common sense. One of my
co-workers
pretty much lives on McDonald's because he likes meat. But what he
doesn't
realize is that there's hardly any meat there- he's eating mostly starch
and
sugar. The same would be true if he bought a McDonnald's salad and used
all
the dressing in the packeage.


Good point.

Peter

"Peter Dy" wrote in message
m...

"Tea" wrote in message
...

"Peter Dy" wrote in message
y.com...

"Tea" wrote in message
...
[...]
Another way of convincing him- fat goth bois don't look good in
vinyl
pants,
but eating food that looks to many Americans as if it came from a
Klingon
diner is very cool indeed.


Hehe! That's one of the funnier suggestions I've seen for convincing
people
to keep slim. Is "bois" a typo? Or is it like "rulez"?

Kinda. A lot of Goth women call their guys 'bois'. One thing about many
Goths- a lot of them see thinness as an ideal. And a lot of the guys
look
real cute in leather and vinyl pants.


Ah, thanks.


If women have been gotten to exercize and eat right by appeals to their
vanity, men who are fashion conscious can too.

Anyway, I don't think it is true that not eating vegetables makes one
fat.
Doesn't it have to do with caloric intake? I thought that in some
cultures
vegetables are rarely eaten, yet the people aren't fat -- I'm thinking
of
Eskimos and Tibetans.

But they also don't eat tons of meat, either, especially in comparison
to
their work load. Most US meat eaters are driving around in SUVs, not
plowing the field with oxen or catching dinner through ice-fishing.


Goths drive SUVs?! No, that's not good.

It has been known to happen. They even have kids and soccer games.

And the OP didn't say that her husband ate "tons of meat." I think it is
possible to eat no vegetables and still be healthy and slim.

Peter

It is possible to be slim. But is it healthy? Not according to heart
specialists.

"Peter Dy" wrote in message
...

"Tea" wrote in message
...

"Peter Dy" wrote in message
m...

"Dan Logcher" wrote in message
...
Peter Dy wrote:

"Tea" wrote in message
...
[...]

Another way of convincing him- fat goth bois don't look good in
vinyl

pants,

but eating food that looks to many Americans as if it came from a
Klingon
diner is very cool indeed.



Hehe! That's one of the funnier suggestions I've seen for
convincing
people
to keep slim. Is "bois" a typo? Or is it like "rulez"?

Anyway, I don't think it is true that not eating vegetables makes
one
fat.
Doesn't it have to do with caloric intake? I thought that in some
cultures
vegetables are rarely eaten, yet the people aren't fat -- I'm
thinking
of
Eskimos and Tibetans.

Yes, but neither of the cultures have booming populations.


I don't understand.

And it seems like the Tibetans do have a birth rate (14 per thousand)
that
is higher than western European countries and higher than that of
Chinese.
(Though this is only after Tibet was incorporated into the PRC. There
life
expectancy has also jumped up by 30 years after the Chinese took over.
Due
to greater exposure to vegetables?)

I was just saying that if one eats 2 bowls of rice with meat every day
for
lunch and dinner, while someone else is eating salads laden with fatty
dressings, followed by a steak, steamed brocolli, and a buttered baked
potato for lunch and dinner, that the latter will get fatter due to
higher
caloric intake, even though vegetables are part of the latter's diet.


Peter


But Tibet actually proves what I'm saying!
Starches and lots of meat will make people fat.


But that's what most Tibetans eat! Butter-rich tsampa and yak meat. Even
the Dalai Lama.

Neither of which are processed with sugar and starch. I suspect from having
read people's past posts and email addresses that most of us on this list
live in the US, Canada, or Britain- countries that are known for processed
foods. While everyone in those countries doesn't eat processed foods, most
of us have at some point.


Those starches can come in
the form of heavily sugared and oiled salad dressings out of a bottle
and
the meat can be a Wendy's special. If you have a high caloric intake
(and
the way most of us eat, we do)


Hey, who's "we"?

Probably most people reading this list in English? As individuals, you and
I might not eat this way. But most people in primarily English speaking
countries (we're on an English-language list; if this list was in Tibetan or
Inuit, that would be another story) eat too much starch and fat, don't work
it off, and takt that starch and fat in processed form (i.e., added sugars,
starches and highly-processed oils).
I actually grew up inthe US in a family where most of the foods were
homemade, and I seem to have a lower tolerance for the taste of processed
foods than most people I know. I'd still include myself in the 'we', though,
because I've been exposed to fast food culture, and often have to remind
myself not to eat or drink certain things. Granted, this is an Asian food
list, and many of us now or have always eaten primarily Asian foods that are
not highly processed. However, the Demoness was asking how to hide veggies
from her husband- I have a feeling that if her husband had been raised on
Asian cuisine, she wouldn't be asking that question.


you'll get fat. But the Demoness wasn't
asking about how to serve her husband Seven Seas salad dressing- if you
slather your salad with that, you're not going to lose weight. The same
thing applies to tempura- frying veggies after battering them and making
that a staple of one's diet is dangerous.
Luckily, no one in Tibet eats that way.


Amen.


Many Tibetans also get constant
exercize, which is important to maintaining weight loss and keeping
muscle
tone.


True.


But are a lot of people fooling themselves when they pour the dressing
on the chicken Ceasar salad? Yes. Read the salad dressing label- one is
only supposed to use a small amount. Actually, it's cheaper and better
to
use you own, which won't contain salts, sugars, or starches.

All of this ignores that a grwon man ought to be able to eat vegetables
without his wife 'hiding them'.


I agree. But we don't know if he is fat or not. If he isn't, maybe we're
just graping at trendy, "heathty eating" propaganda.

Nope. I'm not a trendy eater. I grew up on ham hocks and collard greens. I
see fat as a food group, and a yummy one, too. I love meat. But trendiness
doesn't explain why kids are turning into balloons from eating fast food and
sweetened processed foods. Not does it explain that high blood pressure in
African Americans seems to be linked to the amount of fat and starch they
eat- since basic soul food in reasonable amounts is actually a healthy diet,
but most people who eat sould food now add extra grease and starch, and use
meat as the main event, not as a seasoning. Trendiness does not account for
findings that unsaturated fats like olive oil are good for you, but it's
long been known that oils used multiple time for frying pick up chemicals
that are toxic to humans- so that the way in which a small amount of oil is
used in a Mediterranean or Chinese dish is not the same as cooking french
fries with used oil.

All cultures contain fat, oils, starches. How those items are prepared and
eaten makes a difference- and it's not just tredy doctors saying it. Food
ways and their effect on the health, weight, and height of various
populations have also been noted by anthropologists, who are not exactly the
most trendy people (I'm one, and we can hardly dress ourselves most of the
time, let alone spot trends).


As a culture I think we are often way too
indulgent about food- our bodies crave sweets and fats, and so we now
put
both in everything to near exclusion of common sense. One of my
co-workers
pretty much lives on McDonald's because he likes meat. But what he
doesn't
realize is that there's hardly any meat there- he's eating mostly starch
and
sugar. The same would be true if he bought a McDonnald's salad and used
all
the dressing in the packeage.


Good point.

Peter

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:52:49 GMT, "Tea" wrote:


But Tibet actually proves what I'm saying!
Starches and lots of meat will make people fat. Those starches can come in
the form of heavily sugared and oiled salad dressings out of a bottle and
the meat can be a Wendy's special. If you have a high caloric intake (and
the way most of us eat, we do) you'll get fat. But the Demoness wasn't
asking about how to serve her husband Seven Seas salad dressing- if you
slather your salad with that, you're not going to lose weight. The same
thing applies to tempura- frying veggies after battering them and making
that a staple of one's diet is dangerous.
Luckily, no one in Tibet eats that way. Many Tibetans also get constant
exercize, which is important to maintaining weight loss and keeping muscle
tone. But are a lot of people fooling themselves when they pour the dressing
on the chicken Ceasar salad? Yes. Read the salad dressing label- one is
only supposed to use a small amount. Actually, it's cheaper and better to
use you own, which won't contain salts, sugars, or starches.

All of this ignores that a grwon man ought to be able to eat vegetables
without his wife 'hiding them'. As a culture I think we are often way too
indulgent about food- our bodies crave sweets and fats, and so we now put
both in everything to near exclusion of common sense. One of my co-workers
pretty much lives on McDonald's because he likes meat. But what he doesn't
realize is that there's hardly any meat there- he's eating mostly starch and
sugar. The same would be true if he bought a McDonnald's salad and used all
the dressing in the packeage.

The sermon has ended. Go in peace.

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 00:15:00 -0400, Demoness Abigor
wrote:

Hello to all.

Just looking for a little feedback on this. My husband does not like
vegetables and I would love to make a dish for him. Any suggestions or
feedback on how to 'hide them' per se?

I'd approach it a bit differently:
What is it he doesn't like about them? I grew up thinking I hated all
veggies except lettuce because my mother overcooked all of them to
suit my father's taste. I didn't realize that was the problem until I
got a taste of raw or blanched veggies with some natural sweetness and
texture left. My epiphacy BTW came with just blanched fresh broccoli
chilled and dipped in homemade (and fairly lo cal) buttermilk
dressing. Bright green, with sweetness left in it contrasting nicely
with the tangy buttermilk and any strong taste that might have still
scared me off deadened a bit by chilling it.

Which veggies doesn't he like - a variation on what doesn't he like
about them. For example, beets quite literally make me gag but I love
beet greens. So if it's all the strong tasting ones like beets then
try something like mild oriental greens in a stir fry with other
ingredients, so it doesn't look like force feeding him something he
already thinks he won't like. You might consider stuffed veggies in
the same light - where he can get enough of the flavors he likes to
make him forget about the one he thinks he won't like and be
pleasantly surprised. Which I guess is my general thought - rather
than preparing a vegetable dish for him, which it sounds like he's
programmed himself to dislike without trying, try to figure out more
exactly what to minimize about veggies, then include them with stuff
he will like to build up a broader tolerance.

Kim
Play the percentages to reply

Tea wrote:
+ But are a lot of people fooling themselves when they pour the dressing
+ on the chicken Ceasar salad? Yes.

Not necessarily. Some people have been convinced that you really need
to choke your veggies down and that getting those fiber, vitamins, and
spiritual sunlight-grown plant energy (or whatever) into your system is
worth the extra salts, sugars, fats, and whatever needed to make it
palatable. For those people, they're not fooling themselves -- they
think the plant matter is worth the other stuff.

+ Read the salad dressing label- one is only supposed to use a small amount.
+ Actually, it's cheaper and better to use you own, which won't contain
+ salts, sugars, or starches.

Um. If there's no salts, sugars, or starches, what's left to put in
the dressing? Pure fat? I think I'd rather go out and buy a fat-free
balsamic vinagrette with a small amount of salt, sugar, and starch than
dump home-made lard on my salads. The balsamic vinagrette probably
tastes significantly better too.

+ All of this ignores that a grwon man ought to be able to eat vegetables
+ without his wife 'hiding them'. As a culture I think we are often way too
+ indulgent about food- our bodies crave sweets and fats, and so we now put
+ both in everything to near exclusion of common sense.

How is it "common sense" that the things your body craves are bad for you?
How is it "common sense" that we arguably have absolutely no idea what
our bodies really crave and that our "cravings" are very likely the
product of the preferences of our peers and the ads on TV? True human
"common sense" probably died out when we started making changes to
ourselves and the planet faster than evolution can take effect.

+ One of my co-workers
+ pretty much lives on McDonald's because he likes meat. But what he doesn't
+ realize is that there's hardly any meat there- he's eating mostly starch and
+ sugar. The same would be true if he bought a McDonnald's salad and used all
+ the dressing in the packeage.

For a year (shortly after I dropped most of my cash on a downpayment),
I was having Burger King on a daily basis. It was all about the price
-- it was really, really cheap. I think people initially eat fast food
mostly because it's cheap, and then (like Mac & Cheese) start to develop
a taste for it. I'd argue that people who _really_ like meat tend to
go for steak and ribs once they can afford it. (Mmm...)

Betty Lee wrote:

How is it "common sense" that the things your body craves are bad for you?
How is it "common sense" that we arguably have absolutely no idea what
our bodies really crave and that our "cravings" are very likely the
product of the preferences of our peers and the ads on TV? True human
"common sense" probably died out when we started making changes to
ourselves and the planet faster than evolution can take effect.


It is common sense that my body craves carbs. I know I want them,
and when I have them the craving subsides. I know they are not good
for me in excess, but that doesn't stop the craving.


For a year (shortly after I dropped most of my cash on a downpayment),
I was having Burger King on a daily basis. It was all about the price
-- it was really, really cheap. I think people initially eat fast food
mostly because it's cheap, and then (like Mac & Cheese) start to develop
a taste for it. I'd argue that people who _really_ like meat tend to
go for steak and ribs once they can afford it. (Mmm...)

How can it be cheaper to eat at Burger King than go and buy a package of
hamburger, bums, and a bag of potatoes? You can make several meals doing
it yourself at the same price. I think people eat fast food because they
want it now and don't want to do it themselves.

--
Dan

Dan Logcher wrote:
+ Betty Lee wrote:
+ For a year (shortly after I dropped most of my cash on a downpayment),
+ I was having Burger King on a daily basis. It was all about the price
+ -- it was really, really cheap. I think people initially eat fast food
+ mostly because it's cheap, and then (like Mac & Cheese) start to develop
+ a taste for it. I'd argue that people who _really_ like meat tend to
+ go for steak and ribs once they can afford it. (Mmm...)
+
+ How can it be cheaper to eat at Burger King than go and buy a package of
+ hamburger, bums, and a bag of potatoes? You can make several meals doing
+ it yourself at the same price. I think people eat fast food because they
+ want it now and don't want to do it themselves.

The point is that people who _really_ like meat would go for steak and
ribs anyways...

But if you want to change the subject, of _course_ we want it now and we
don't want to do it ourselves. Getting things now using other peoples'
effort for cheap saves money too. Is it fair to say it takes about 8
minutes to cook a burger and clean up later? If someone were worth only
$15/hr, then that in and of itself would make the $2 burger cheaper than
making one themselves, even if the ingredients, the gas it took to cook
the burger, and the water and soap to wash up afterwards were all free.
Added to that, having the workmates pick them up a burger on their
way back from lunch means they didn't need to punch out for an hour
to get hot food -- if they made it themselves, they'd have to wake up
earlier to make themselves the food and take it with them, and they would
still end up with a cold burger for lunch anyways after all that effort.
Since you can easily get a burger for $2 (or even $0.99 plus tax for
some of them), it's just not worth the aggravation.

"Tea" wrote in message
...


But Tibet actually proves what I'm saying!
Starches and lots of meat will make people fat.


But that's what most Tibetans eat! Butter-rich tsampa and yak meat.
Even
the Dalai Lama.

Neither of which are processed with sugar and starch. I suspect from
having
read people's past posts and email addresses that most of us on this list
live in the US, Canada, or Britain- countries that are known for processed
foods. While everyone in those countries doesn't eat processed foods,
most
of us have at some point.


Ok, hold on a sec! I didn't know the topic was: Why are Americans getting
so fat these last couple of decades? I thought the question was: If a human
being doesn't eat veggies, he/she will get fat. I do think America's
obesity problem to be very interesting, and I agree with most all of what
you wrote below (which I've clipped for aesthetic reasons).

Peter

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 00:15:00 -0400, Demoness Abigor
wrote:

Just looking for a little feedback on this. My husband does not like
vegetables and I would love to make a dish for him. Any suggestions or
feedback on how to 'hide them' per se?

"Does not like vegetables" is a pretty sweeping statement. I would
(probably) eat a boot if it were battered and deep-fried, although
that isn't the healthiest presentation for veg. Many/most root veg can
be cooked, mashed, enriched with butter, cream or milk, and seasoned a
la potatoes. Many who don't like cooked veg will happily eat a salad
which can include a multitude of leaves and sliced/cubed/shredded raw
veg. Soups are vehicles of many veg ingredients. Almost any veg can be
cooked in chicken broth, partially or completely pureed, and returned
to the pot with or without a heavy cream addition. Veg can be simply
cooked and made very pretty -- lined up briefly steamed green beans
with garnish of grated lemon peel and/or butter and/or toasted nuts.
Veg (squash, tomatoes, onions, corn, asparagus, eggplant...) can be
grilled and basted with a flavorful sauce. Pumpkin or sweet potato pie
can be made with many types of squash. Muffins, souffles, casseroles,
omelets, soups, salads...

Betty Lee wrote:

Peter Dy wrote:
+ Anyway, I don't think it is true that not eating vegetables
makes one fat.

There's been long debates about this. Half the debate claims
that not eating vegetables will make one unhealthy, no matter if
one is fat or not.

It should be obviously clear by now that a diet consisting of lots
of fruits and vegetables makes for a much healthier diet.

I generally consider myself to hate vegetables.

I don't understand people who can say that they dislike
vegetables.


I agree with the other poster -- if someone is steadfastly
refusing to give any sort of veggies a chance just because
they're veggies, they need to progress beyond the mental age of
5. Beyond that, there's very likely some form of veggie or
another that can be prepared in a way that is palatable to any
taste.

Anyone who refuses to eat vegetables is practicing a form of
dietary perversion.

Any parent who fails to feed their children plenty of vegetables
is committing dietary abuse.

NewsM wrote:



Anyone who refuses to eat vegetables is practicing a form of
dietary perversion.


Those sick people should be locked up for not liking vegetables.


Any parent who fails to feed their children plenty of vegetables
is committing dietary abuse.

Those sick parents should have their children taken away from them,
and then locked up and forced to eat only vegetables.

SICKOS!!! All of them!!!

--
Dan

"Dan Logcher" wrote in message
...
NewsM wrote:



Anyone who refuses to eat vegetables is practicing a form of
dietary perversion.


Those sick people should be locked up for not liking vegetables.


Any parent who fails to feed their children plenty of vegetables
is committing dietary abuse.

Those sick parents should have their children taken away from them,
and then locked up and forced to eat only vegetables.

SICKOS!!! All of them!!!

--
Dan


And fruit, Dan. Don't forget the fruit.

Michele (confirmed meat eater who also loves her veggies)

Tea wrote:

"Dan Logcher" wrote in message
...

NewsM wrote:


Anyone who refuses to eat vegetables is practicing a form of
dietary perversion.


Those sick people should be locked up for not liking vegetables.



Any parent who fails to feed their children plenty of vegetables
is committing dietary abuse.

Those sick parents should have their children taken away from them,
and then locked up and forced to eat only vegetables.

SICKOS!!! All of them!!!

And fruit, Dan. Don't forget the fruit.

FRUIT!!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!

Parents that don't give their children fruit should be executed,
and then their bodies pelted with fruit.

Man, I'm glad my son will eat anything. I hope this trend continues.

--
Dan