In article ,
Kenneth wrote:

Howdy,

I have been trying to get an authentic recipe for lai mein
(hand pulled) Chinese noodles.

Also, it is often suggested that the dough contain a small
amount of what is often called Kan Sui, or "lye water"
(actually a solution of potassium carbonate and sodium
bicarbonate), but this seems to have the opposite of the
intended effect.

My understanding this is added to color the noodles, but not sure it is
added to hand pulled noodle. What is your source that this is an
ingredient?



Might you know of a lai mein noodle dough recipe that
actually works? Have you tried it?

I cannot claim to have great expertise but I have had a casual interest
in this ever since I have watched Chinese Chef's do it on TV. Anyway I
stumbled on this site when I was in my information hunting mode:

http://www.melcherruwart.com/Pages/Noodles.htm

It recounts a families experience with an expert noodle puller and has
quite a few tips. In the text he mentions that the puller smeared the
dough with a sulfur smelling compound. The compound identity was not
revealed but my GUESS was that it was "Kala Namak" or Indian "black
salt" that you can find at an Indian grocery store. This has a strong
sulphurous odor and is food safe and commonly used in India. This has
sodium sulfide as an ingredient and could act as a reducer. I
conjectured about this and Roy Basan seemed to think it might work (I
searched but could not find my original post or Roy's reply). I tried
it and had no recipe to follow and was flying blind. I made a solution
and smeared it over the dough that was rolled flat. This really did
seem to make the dough more extensible but my noodle pulling technique
was so so. I did not pursue this much but it might be a beginning.

You might also want to try Laura Brody's dough relaxer. Cysteine might
also work if you can get your hands on it.

If you have other sources of information and recipes I would love to
hear abut them because I might come back to it at some time.

When I was in my information gathering mode a Chinese student told me
her father made them and he used a great deal of oil in the dough. I
think in this approach you are trying to keep the gluten chains short
and oil achieves this. I did not pursue this approach because I did not
want a rich dough. The guy periodically visits the US and I might
corner him to watch his technique and get a recipe on his next visit.

This is probably not the right forum for this and I have crossposted to
alt.food.asian.

Roland

On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:40:18 -0600, Joe Doe
wrote:

Hi Roland,

Please see my comments inline below...


In article ,
Kenneth wrote:

Howdy,

I have been trying to get an authentic recipe for lai mein
(hand pulled) Chinese noodles.

Also, it is often suggested that the dough contain a small
amount of what is often called Kan Sui, or "lye water"
(actually a solution of potassium carbonate and sodium
bicarbonate), but this seems to have the opposite of the
intended effect.

My understanding this is added to color the noodles, but not sure it is
added to hand pulled noodle. What is your source that this is an
ingredient?



I have read scores of sources. "Lye Water" is often
mentioned.

Most recently, this was suggested to me on rec.food.cooking:

"Here's a recipe from a favorite food blog I visit often:

http://lilyng2000.blogspot.com/2005/...kkien-mee.html

They're cut, rather than pulled, but I think the recipe will
work."





Might you know of a lai mein noodle dough recipe that
actually works? Have you tried it?

I cannot claim to have great expertise but I have had a casual interest
in this ever since I have watched Chinese Chef's do it on TV. Anyway I
stumbled on this site when I was in my information hunting mode:

http://www.melcherruwart.com/Pages/Noodles.htm


The site above is wonderful...! Thanks.

It recounts a families experience with an expert noodle puller and has
quite a few tips. In the text he mentions that the puller smeared the
dough with a sulfur smelling compound. The compound identity was not
revealed but my GUESS was that it was "Kala Namak" or Indian "black
salt" that you can find at an Indian grocery store. This has a strong
sulphurous odor and is food safe and commonly used in India. This has
sodium sulfide as an ingredient and could act as a reducer. I
conjectured about this and Roy Basan seemed to think it might work (I
searched but could not find my original post or Roy's reply). I tried
it and had no recipe to follow and was flying blind. I made a solution
and smeared it over the dough that was rolled flat. This really did
seem to make the dough more extensible but my noodle pulling technique
was so so. I did not pursue this much but it might be a beginning.

My quest for "Kala Namak" has begun...


You might also want to try Laura Brody's dough relaxer. Cysteine might
also work if you can get your hands on it.

If you have other sources of information and recipes I would love to
hear abut them because I might come back to it at some time.

I'll keep you posted...


When I was in my information gathering mode a Chinese student told me
her father made them and he used a great deal of oil in the dough. I
think in this approach you are trying to keep the gluten chains short
and oil achieves this. I did not pursue this approach because I did not
want a rich dough. The guy periodically visits the US and I might
corner him to watch his technique and get a recipe on his next visit.

The oil possibility is interesting. It is another one of
those "some do and some don't" things that tell me that
these many authors have never actually gone so far as to use
their own (suggested) recipes.

It does not seem to me that we want short gluten chains
though. It would seem that we want long chains oriented in a
linear way (rather than the clustered, or "cork screw"
chains I believe are produced by the addition of the "lye
water."


This is probably not the right forum for this and I have crossposted to
alt.food.asian.

Roland


I look forward to seeing you over at alt.food.asian and very
much appreciate your response to my post.

It is, by far, the most useful I have received thus far.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:40:18 -0600, Joe Doe
wrote:

snip


This is probably not the right forum for this and I have crossposted to
alt.food.asian.

Roland


I look forward to seeing you over at alt.food.asian and very
much appreciate your response to my post.

It may be a little off topice but I dig enjoy the post and fine it much more
interesting when a lot of other pose here.

Joe Umstead

On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 11:01:19 -0500, Kenneth
wrote:

On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:40:18 -0600, Joe Doe
wrote:


Hi again Roland,

I looked for Kala Namak at our one Asian grocery, but had no
luck.

Then, I came upon this:

http://www.amazon.com/Indian-Black-S.../dp/B000B63J3S

it says that the stuff is potassium chloride...

More later,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Hello, Kenneth!
You wrote on Sat, 06 Jan 2007 13:06:54 -0500:

?? On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:40:18 -0600, Joe Doe
?? wrote:
??
K Hi again Roland,

K I looked for Kala Namak at our one Asian grocery, but had no
K luck.

K Then, I came upon this:

K
http://www.amazon.com/Indian-Black-S.../dp/B000B63J3S

K it says that the stuff is potassium chloride...

It's interesting that the Wikipedia article manages to say it is
KCl and NaCl in adjacent paragraphs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_salt

I suspect it is not KCl and any lessening of saltiness is due to
the contaminants (IMHO) that make it black. I have seen colored
salts being produced in outdoor salt pans in Hawaii.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not

Joe Doe wrote:
In article ,
Kenneth wrote:

Howdy,

I have been trying to get an authentic recipe for lai mein
(hand pulled) Chinese noodles.

[snip]
dough with a sulfur smelling compound. The compound identity was not
revealed but my GUESS was that it was "Kala Namak" or Indian "black
salt" that you can find at an Indian grocery store. This has a strong
[snip]


Hi Roland and All

Here are two mail order sources for "Kala Namak," a sulfurous volcanic
salt. It is available in two websites, one selling Ajika brand at $3 /
2oz jar and another non-branded $8 / 8oz bag.

Both are located in Minnesota (go figure)

Ajika is a self brand from IndianFoodCo.com based in Bloomington, Minn

http://store.indianfoodsco.com/groce...ountryorderid=

The other is a bagged imported salt.

http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals....gory_Code=HFHS

HTH, PLA

On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:40:18 -0600, Joe Doe
wrote:


Hi Roland,

Based upon the assumption that Kala Namak is (mostly)
potassium chloride. I thought that I would experiment with
that notion.

I was able to get some (it's a common "salt substitute" for
folks wanting to cut their intake of sodium) and have
experimented using it in the dough at a few different rates.

It seems to make no difference whatever in the "stretch
factor."

I will certainly try to get some proper Kala Namak and will
let you know of my results.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

In article ,
Kenneth wrote:

On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 11:01:19 -0500, Kenneth
wrote:

On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:40:18 -0600, Joe Doe
wrote:


Hi again Roland,

I looked for Kala Namak at our one Asian grocery, but had no
luck.

Then, I came upon this:

http://www.amazon.com/Indian-Black-S.../dp/B000B63J3S

it says that the stuff is potassium chloride...

More later,

Gernot Katzer who maintains the excellent spice pages tracked down the
composition and it is found here. This source does not have KCl as an
ingredient.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.f...read/689682f62
02c671/94357c5abc786d7e?lnk=st&q=kala+namak+composition&r num=1&hl=en#9435
7c5abc786d7e


This site has a bag of what it looks like.

http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals....mvc?Screen=PRO
D&Product_Code=SALTKFH&Category_Code=HFHS

If you cannot find a local source I could mail you some.


Roland

In article ,
Kenneth wrote:

On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:40:18 -0600, Joe Doe


My understanding this is added to color the noodles, but not sure it is
added to hand pulled noodle. What is your source that this is an
ingredient?



I have read scores of sources. "Lye Water" is often
mentioned.

I think it is used commonly for color but not for the purpose you want.
My source for this information is a technical paper on Asian noodle
technology put out by the American Institue of Baking that has a very
good review of the different noodles and their formulation:

https://secure.aibonline.org/catalog...e/V20Iss12.pdf

Roland

In article ,
"James Silverton" not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not wrote:

n.com/Indian-Black-Salt-Kala-Namak/dp/B000B63J3S

K it says that the stuff is potassium chloride...

It's interesting that the Wikipedia article manages to say it is
KCl and NaCl in adjacent paragraphs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_salt

I suspect it is not KCl and any lessening of saltiness is due to
the contaminants (IMHO) that make it black. I have seen colored
salts being produced in outdoor salt pans in Hawaii.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland



The wiki article also says it has almost no odour which is definitely
not true - it has a pungent sulfurous odour that is unmistakable.

Roland

On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 19:10:05 -0600, Joe Doe
wrote:

In article ,
Kenneth wrote:

On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:40:18 -0600, Joe Doe


My understanding this is added to color the noodles, but not sure it is
added to hand pulled noodle. What is your source that this is an
ingredient?



I have read scores of sources. "Lye Water" is often
mentioned.

I think it is used commonly for color but not for the purpose you want.
My source for this information is a technical paper on Asian noodle
technology put out by the American Institue of Baking that has a very
good review of the different noodles and their formulation:

https://secure.aibonline.org/catalog...e/V20Iss12.pdf

Roland

Hi Roland,

Based on my experiments, I fully agree that the addition of
"lye water" is definitely not the way to go for the pulled
noodles.

I appreciate your offer of some of the "black salt" but have
already ordered some online.

Beyond that, I stumbled onto something interesting relating
to the odor of the salt:

I read a technical article from the pizza industry. It
mentioned that to increase dough extensibility one should
consider the addition of "L-Cysteine."

That (as you might know) turns out to be a sulfur based
amino acid!

Let's assume for the moment that the "magic sauce" (as
described in the link you provided earlier of the family
learning to pull the noodles) is, indeed, a solution of kala
namak.

Would you have any guess about why it was added to the
kneaded dough rather than being used as its initial source
of hydration?

In any case, it would appear that my experiments are stalled
until I receive my order for "black salt."

We will soon become noodle masters in our respective
communities...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Joe Doe wrote:
snipped
You might also want to try Laura Brody's dough relaxer. Cysteine might
also work if you can get your hands on it.

If you have other sources of information and recipes I would love to
hear abut them because I might come back to it at some time.
snipped

Just a completely wild stab here, but could the 'magic sauce' mixture
have been hartshorn aka ammonium bicarbonate? It is commonly mixed with
water before using. It has an ammonia-like odor which isn't exactly
sulfurous, but then not exactly not. It was commonly used as a leavener
in Scandinavia before the advent of baking soda and powder now in modern
times. I still have a cookie recipe that calls for it and a small stash.
I'm not sharing, however, I think it's available at King Arthur and
other places.

--
Saara

On Sun, 07 Jan 2007 06:22:42 GMT, Saara
wrote:

Just a completely wild stab here, but could the 'magic sauce' mixture
have been hartshorn aka ammonium bicarbonate? It is commonly mixed with
water before using.

Howdy,

I thank you for the suggestion, but I believe it will not do
the job.

Hartshorn is a leavening. It makes the dough rise by
producing gas.

I'm looking for materials that will make a wheat dough
super-extensible. I want to be able to take a ball of dough
the size of my fist, and stretch it about six feet.

Any additional thoughts would be most welcome...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 19:10:05 -0600, Joe Doe
wrote:

In article ,
Kenneth wrote:

On Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:40:18 -0600, Joe Doe


My understanding this is added to color the noodles, but not sure it is
added to hand pulled noodle. What is your source that this is an
ingredient?



I have read scores of sources. "Lye Water" is often
mentioned.

I think it is used commonly for color but not for the purpose you want.
My source for this information is a technical paper on Asian noodle
technology put out by the American Institue of Baking that has a very
good review of the different noodles and their formulation:

https://secure.aibonline.org/catalog...e/V20Iss12.pdf

Roland

Hi Roland,

I just had some very interesting progress, though in an
unexpected direction...

I knew that if (as has happened on occasion) I forgot to
turn my mixer off, it produced dough with a very odd
"syrupy" texture. That is, the gluten's elasticity seemed
all but gone, but its extensibility remained.

I just tried that approach for the noodle dough, and indeed,
it works... almost...

It did allow me to pull 16 strands (of reasonably fine
noodles.) but then, they started to tear.

Further experimentation seemed to indicate that such
diminution in extensibility was caused by a drop in
temperature. (When I took the dough from the mixer, it was
at about 80F with a room temperature of 68F.)

Also, I learned something about the pulling that is
counter-intuitive (at lest for me):

When I stretched the dough, my every impulse is to do it
cautiously so as to avoid breaking the strands.

In fact, if I just give 'em a rough pull, they are much less
likely to break.

I have some kala namak on order, but will definitely
continue to experiment with this mechanical approach as
well.

I have done it only this one time and that with very high
protein flour.

Later today, I will give it a try with lower protein flour,
and will let you know if anything interesting happens.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

In article ,
Kenneth wrote:

On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 19:10:05 -0600, Joe Doe
wrote:

In article ,


I just had some very interesting progress, though in an
unexpected direction...

I knew that if (as has happened on occasion) I forgot to
turn my mixer off, it produced dough with a very odd
"syrupy" texture. That is, the gluten's elasticity seemed
all but gone, but its extensibility remained.

I just tried that approach for the noodle dough, and indeed,
it works... almost...

It did allow me to pull 16 strands (of reasonably fine
noodles.) but then, they started to tear.


It is well known that if you overwork dough the gluten breaks down. It
is physically sheared by the mechanical action. Thus the elasticity is
gone (irreversibly). What you are trying to achieve is something
conceptually similar but chemically - i.e. the kala namak or cysteine
etc. will break down inter-strand cross-links and thus make the dough
more extensible while preserving a long gluten chain (the hope is to
have long chains with few(er) inter strand cross-links). But being
chemical the reaction is somewhat reversible.

Following up on your idea however, THERE IS an aspect to the technique
which is important in terms of mechanical development. If you notice
the pullers use a kneading action of repeatedly pulling and folding
BEFORE they actually try to pull the noodles. I believe that this
serves to align the chains into longer and longer lengths while breaking
down the inter-strand links i.e. it is a subtle manipulation to
mechanically achieve what I have described. I would roll the dough into
a long thin log, fold back on itself and repeat many times and allow the
dough to rest if necessary (maybe even over the course of a day i.e.
repeat the folding every few hours if it proves to be too elastic). I
think this will greatly help your efforts.


Roland