On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:36:08 -0700, Samartha Deva
wrote:

Does your book show what was necessary to reliably sterilize flour?

I have the 2001 edition according to the copyright.

The older version of the book I have

It appears to be the first printing. ISBN: 1-58008-344-7

Note that this is not the "Antiquity" book, but is entitled as
indicated above in the subject line.

shows: = 500,000 rads for 12 hours
to reliably sterilize flour. When doing sterilizations with 150,000 rads
it would not sterilize the flour.

I have not read the entire book - the remaining chapters are just
recipes plus his thinly-veiled advertisement chapter. There is no
entry in the index under "sterile" or similar words.

I have never questioned that one cannot "catch" organisms from the air.

You sure fooled me and a lot of other people. I recall you stating
unequivocally that anyone who believed in the myth of catching starter
organisms was a fool.

That's incorrect. LB SF bacteria have been isolated from sourdoughs in
USA, Italy and Germany (possibly other's as well). If you need to see
the references, I can dig those out.

That's only one of two necessary organisms. What about the SF yeast,
if there is such a thing?

Also I notice you use the phrase "isolated from sourdoughs". That
tells us nothing about the origin of the starter organisms. Did they
originate in the flour? If so, how did the particular version from SF
get there?

Or are you saying that regional differences in starters is a myth too?

And - flour is from the "environment" - fertilized and all.

Yes, like North Dakota. How does SF yeast exist in North Dakota flour?
If SF yeast is everywhere, then why call it SF yeast and make claims
that it can only be found in the SF region - as many people do? Why
would Ed Wood be marketing different starters if they all come from
the same common yeast organism, the one which is found in wheat from
North Dakota, the Ukrane, Bumfuk Egypt, et al.

Something about this does not compute.

SF organisms are said to develop after a while - that being continuous
refreshments for 3 weeks.

You are weasel wording. You use the term "SF organisms" as if you are
referring to both the LB and the yeast. I do not dispute the claim
that LB SF is everywhere. But if so, then SF yeast cannot be
everywhere, in particular in flour everywhere, because then there
would be no regional differences in starters.

You have or had your organisms growing in your flour as I conclude from
one of your posts where you saw tiny bubbles ( or something to this
extent ).

The starters I attempted to make would never reach the stage where
they would bubble and expand. I fed one exactly as instructed for 5
full days and all it did was produce a few little bubbles, which could
have been from having stirred it - an outgassing of trapped air.

Your posting style, in particular the phrases you used and the
assumptions you made and posted about my web site and motives have made
it impossible for me to respond in this manner I am able to do right now
thanks to Kenneth's input.

How's it feel to have someone kick dirt back at you, bully.

SF organisms don't occur "naturally" - well, at least so far they have
not been isolated from anywhere else but sourdough. So, if you want to
"catch" the LB SF from a flour bag, it would be a discovery if you are
able to proof the existence or most likely a flop. LB SF's are
specialized in sourdough environments, not in flour and nature.

Now it appears you are changing your tune radically. Earlier you made
it very clear that starter organisms come solely from the flour. Now
you appear to be saying that is not the case.

What is this new terminology "sourdough environment"? What does that
mean? This is the first time I have ever heard reference made to a
"sourdough environment".

And - all this speculation about the where's why's and perhaps - once
you have a working starter and you like the bread, who cares?

Because I do not like to be led on merry chases, that's why.

You post a recipe which you make look easy. But it is everything but
easy, in fact in my case it is impossible. I tried 4 different flours
and not one of them started successfully. I followed the instructions
on your website to the last detail.

Why didn't you bother to let people know the exact details of the rye
flour you used? All you say is: "buy/get full grain rye flour". Wood
is willing to concede that "freshly ground organic flour" might start
on its own without any help from the environment. In fact I am about
to leave for the Whole Foods Market to see if I can get them to
freshly mill some organic wheat and rye flour from berries.

I really do want to be able to make a starter from flour alone because
I do not like capturing wild organisms from the atmosphere in one of
the dirtiest cities in the world. I could easily end up with an
organic solvent. And I would rather not have to depend on starters
from others because of the problems with getting them going. That's
why I invested so much time and effort in trying to get a flour-based
starter going.

PS.: you are still going on with this cult shit while I type this post.
I really think I am wasting my time here. Since I have this already
typed, I send it off. Maybe you can take a step back and have a look how
all this started, in particular if Dick's response with the chewing gum
was worth feeling to get "attacked" and start this nego charade.

That smart ass crack was uncalled for and set the stage for subsequent
hostilities. If the purpose of this forum is to serve as a place where
newcomers will be attacked on their very first post, then this place
really sucks.

Honestly, what kind of a guy are you having to do this?

I am a Texan. We don't take any crap off of anybody - as Saddam
Hussein just learned the hard way.