In article ,
(Bob) wrote:
On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:07:38 -0400, EJM wrote:
Bob, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are
serious about trying to get help making a hard crust on your baguettes,
rather than just filling up the ether by insulting the people who are
trying to aid you.
I have not insulted anyone trying to aid me. As I said, there is some
kind of psychopathology going on here. [snip]
Oh what nonsense. People are merely expressing their annoyance if they
feel their time is being wasted.
As a measure of my sincerety to make bread, I made that "chewy
sourdough baguette" last night incorporating some of the things I
picked up here. Here are my observations:
I believe that you mentioned you had only ever made one recipe - the KA
recipe "Breads From The Hearth: Baguettes and Ciabatta with Sue Gray &
P.J. Hamel". It is not a sourdough recipe even if you call it one.
1. I increased the recipe to 6 cups of flour. That made 3 baguettes
the size I wanted but I still had to let the dough go thru a final
rise to get the size loaf I wanted. That lessened the density which is
not what I wanted. Lesson: I am going to have to increase the flour
some more to lessen the time of the final rise.
I trust that you scaled the whole recipe? One has to be careful with
scaling because the amount of yeast required for the approximate 4 cups
of flour in the KA recipe will be different from the amount of yeast
required for 6 cups of flour.
2. I mixed 50% starter to 50% dough instead of the 1:2 ratio that KA
recommended. However, I did not get a more pronounced sourdough effect
because I also changed the way I made the starter. Lesson: Let the
starter go 3 days past the active stage and do not proof it. Also, I
am going to try rye flour additive next time, and that ought to
improve the sourdough effect.
I can't understand why you would expect a more pronounced sourdough
effect. The KA recipe is not a sourdough recipe.
3. I forgot to put yeast in the final dough but the starter had enough
activity that it was capable of rising the dough. I got a doubling in
the 2 hour rise just like when I used yeast. I kinda miss the yeast
aroma in the finished product, so I think I am going to put a small
amount (1/8 tsp) in the final dough. Lesson: It is possible to make an
authentic sourdough with no yeast in the dough - if you have an active
starter.
Authentic sourdough does not use commercial yeast at all. There is a
wonderful entitled 'Primal Bread' in Jeffrey Steingarten's book, "The
Man Who Ate Everything". He describes his adventures in trying to create
authentic sourdough by capturing his own yeast. I realize that you are
loathe to read anything on the recommendation of only one person so
perhaps a few others will confirm that the Steingarten is worth your
time.
4. As a side experiment I mixed 1/4 cup of KA bread flour with 1/4 cup
filtered water in a mason jar and let it sit open in the kitchen
overnight. I did not need to put it in the oven with the light on
because the ambient temperature in our house at this time of the year
in Houston is around 80F anyway. The mixture has not started to
ferment in 18 hours, so I stirred it again. Lesson: The jury is still
out but maybe I can make a sourdough with no commercial yeast
whatsoever - from scratch.
Yes, of course it can be done but I gather for the inexperienced, it
isn't a simple operation. (Read the Steingarten.)
Here is a review of what sourdough is:
.... from www.baking911.com/bread_starters101howto.htm ...
:
: A sourdough starter is a living culture that needs food, water and
: oxygen to cultivate, ferment and multiply and takes a minimum of
: a couple of days or so to get started and months to become stabile.
: Before there was packaged yeast, all bread was leavened by a
: sourdough starter.
:................................................. ......
Take a look at the above URL to see how to make your own starter.
There is also a carefully outlined day to day chart on making a
sourdough starter in "The Village Baker" by Joe Ortiz. I have not tried
making it but I have made non sourdough recipes in Ortiz's book and they
turned out very well.
5. I left the baked loaves in the oven for 10 minutes after turning
the oven off and opening the door for a minute to cool it off to 300F.
I also sprayed the loaves with water when I started baking them. Now I
have more crust than I really want. Lesson: Don't overdo crust
formation. Water spray alone is sufficient or perhaps leaving them in
the oven with no water spray will work.
Certainly, try both to see which you prefer. It's my suspicion that
spraying alone will do the trick.
It's true that we who recommend this book may be just parroting nobodies
(but then again we might not). But there is a simple way to test.
Instead of asking why you should bother believing that something is
worth taking up your valuable time to read, see if your public library
has a copy of the book(s) recommended here and read for yourself. Or if
you don't want to heft the whole book, you can go to amazon.com and read
an excerpt to see if perhaps it is indeed a book that you would find
useful:
As I said before I have read a lot of books and Internet recipes, so I
am reluctant to read any more because I am afraid I will just get more
confused. I do have
I really can't see how "On Food and Cooking" would make you more
confused. It is about the science of cooking - as in "what exactly
happens when flour and water are mixed in order to form gluten strands?
how does higher or lower temperature affect this development? what does
the introduction of fats do? etc. etc." It may well help you to
understand all the other books and internet documents you have read so
far. Of course, baking the bread will help you to understand too.
Classic Sourdoughs: A Home Baker's Handbook
by Ed World Sourdoughs from Antiquity Wood
on order from the library.
Rather than stick doggedly to the one KA recipe that works (or at least
almost works) for you, do use the internet to do some comparisons.
I am trying to achieve a consistent bread. I bake not for the hobby
but for the fact that I can't stand factory bread. Once I get this
recipe down pat, I will put it on a recipe card and move on.
I bake for exactly the same reason that you do. We do not like factory
bread either.
I do have two things I want to achieve once I get this recipe to the
point where it satisfies me. The first is to make an authentic San
Francisco sourdough. In order to do that I have to find an authentic
starter in Houston. Any suggestions?
I gather that the thing about sourdoughs is that they are dependant on
the air. A Houston sourdough (even if it is made exactly the way that a
SanFrancisco sourdough is made) will be slightly different from the
SanFrancisco starter. But I really know very little more about sourdough
and will leave this question up to the folks in r.f.s.
The second thing I want to do is make a genuine New Orleans French
Bread, [snip] (I started a separate thread for this subject).
[snip]
http://ejmtph.crosswinds.net/recipes...html#resources
I took a close look at your boule recipe and decided that it is a more
elaborate version of the KA recipe I used. I am sure you achieve a
much better product than I do, but I am afraid I do not have the same
passion about bread making as you do. The only thing I will put that
much effort into cooking is Texas BBQ. [snip]
It all depends on what you really want, Bob. If you think that the
recipe I make would achieve a better product than your KA recipe then
try to encorporate what you have learned from it into the KA recipe or
try the boule recipe and make it into baguettes. Either make the effort
to bake the bread you are wanting to eat with your Texas bbq or stop
wondering why you aren't achieving it.
--
ejmorris aka llizard
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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