Frederick

I will answer your questions and stay true to my comments, which
probably means you will disagree with me and the results or
recommendations.

1.) I never personally calculate end point alcohol using hydrometers,
but I do agree that many need/want to do that . I do use the
methodology afforded by Thermo Orion's Wine Master Micro
Voltage/Fluoride electrode technique. I use it at my home winemaker
operation, as it not accepted by the Feds as a commercial value, but it
is great for my own information. Relative to your 1090/990 example,
(the numbers are irrelevant ), if I used my hydrometer I would simply
have recorded the starting Brix, and the ending Brix, then used
Margolit's formula, which I have given in other posts. Please note that
I would use these methods, or recommend them for home winemakers only,
and I would stress that these are _estimates_ only. Furthermore, since
the research shows that the factor can be anything between 0.55 and
0.60, I would probably recommend that these numbers be used to estimate
a range of alcohol. I would in no case suggest that these numbers are
anything but estimates.

2.) I would once again use Margolit's formula, but calculate the
starting Brix. Thus 0.57B = 12 and B = 21.05 (Where B = Brix). Using
"your" number the results are 0.55B = 12 and B = 21.8. To be safe I
wild also calculate 0.60B = 12 and find that B = 20. Then I would use
my expertise as a viticulturalist and winemaker to determine if these
estimates would indeed allow me to end up with the wine I wanted.
Frankly I would pick at 22 Brix if the seeds were beginning to brown,
the skins were not too thick, and the varietal was one that lent itself
to being picked at this sugar level, paying special attention to whether
or not this was red or a white wine.

I answered your question simply as an exercise. I would not use them as
anything but a guide. You may feel differently than I do about the
alcohol level in wines, and that is your right. But I ask, is there any
sensory difference between a 12 and a 12.25 or 12.5% wine? In my
opinion, not really. Thus I would never personally try, nor would I
suggest to anyone an absolute number. I would try to assist them to make
a wine between 12 and 12.5% alcohol. It would be incredibly arrogant of
me to state that I knew enough about the complex wine making process to
nail a specific % a priori.

I imagine that the inherent errors in estimating alcohol is why the
Feds allow a 1.5% variance for wines that test at 14% alcohol or more,
and 1% variance for wines that test for 14 % alcohol or less. Even they,
dunderheads that they can be at times, realize that these % are nothing
but estimates.

Regards

Jerry


"frederick ploegman" wrote in message
...
Jerry

Yes, this has gone completely over the top, and that is unfortunate.
I still have your original post. It contains the words: "...posts
about
PA, alcohol content and other minutia are exercises in
"reductio ad absurdum". I will_gladly_bow out of these discussions
if you will answer the folks questions with something other than
these words !! GLADLY !!

I will try to keep this simple. The original question was: "How do I
calculate end alcohol when fermentation is complete?". This was being
asked by people that don't use lab tests. They_were_ using a triple
scale
hydrometer for their frame of reference. The most often used example
was a 1090/990 ferment. Please answer this question for them.

The next question was: "I wish to make a dry (country) wine which
will
have 12% alcohol in it when fermentation is complete. Where should I
set my original gravity?" Please answer this question for them.

Everything else flowed from these questions. Answer them and our
problem is solved. Your best estimates will be good enough.

Further comments interspersed:


"Jerry DeAngelis" wrote in message
ink.net...
Frederick

I have not pontificated in any way about whether one should or should
not do anything relative to hydrometer readings, etc..

snip

I have never said they are "useless" and I ask to not to put words in
my mouth.

YOUR words we "...posts about PA, alcohol content and other
minutia are exercises in "reductio ad absurdum"..."

snip

but they should not be told that these readings are as reliable as
the atomic clock. That teaches nothing and only treats newbies as
people too stupid to think for themselves.

Now I will request that you not put words in _my_ mouth. The actual
numbers being used were only examples intended to demonstrate
methodology.

Frederick - you cannot comment on my wines because you have never had
them, and know nothing about them.

You are right and I apologize. Too many assumptions with too little
info.

snip

The newer strains of MLF bacteria will complete MLF at 15
and 16% alcohol.

Folks have been asking this group for a reference to an MLB that
has an_initial_alcohol toxicity point of 15 or above. You would
certainly
be helping them if you would post an on line source that provides
a detailed description. I would also be interested.

snip


What I have not done is call you a liar, as you have done me. I
have no intention of doing so, but I do wonder why you feel you must
do so.

If you feel that that is what I have done, then I will once again
apologize.

snip

I decided to
comment about PA because as I followed that thread for months, I
began to feel that it was rather "over the top". I still do.

I agree and I have proposed a solution. YOU answer those two
questions
and get me off the hook. TIA

Frederick