Exactly.
And, therefore, CHA should be understood in general terms as a "steeped
beverage, mostly, but not necessarily from C. sinensis". And the best
translation is "tea" because in English tea also may be made from other than
C. sinenis plants.
I am almost sure that when Chinese first saw coffee they must have called it
some "CHA" before the adopted the contemporary, westernized name for it.

Sasha.

"samarkand" wrote in message
...
Interesting topic, I'll tackle Livio and Mike later when I have the time,
but let's look at your experiment now:

Let me subject your experiment to geographical shifts:

In China, Hongkong & Taiwan, where tea is more commonly drunk -

when A says 'I want some CHA', it is generally accepted that he means any
beverage that might come under the name of tea, since you left the
quantifier 'SOME' which leaves the option open. If A wants a C sinensis,
he'll say 'I want CHA'.

In other parts of asia where chinese is spoken, the difference between C
sinensis and non C sinensis beverage is blurred, and most are not
particular
where one ends and the other begins, so when A says 'I want some CHA', B
is
ready for whatever choice A comes up with.

In both instances, B is not surprised.

More commonly, the exchange might be:

A: I want some Cha
B: What kind of Cha? English Cha or Chinese Cha?
A: I want Chrysanthemum Cha
B: Sugared or non sugared?
A: Sugared...


"Alex Chaihorsky" wrote in message
. com...
Wonderful information, I envy your references. Can you actually say if
cha2
connection to tu2 is a well-establishe fact and if yes, can you point me
toward a ref? If its too difficult, forget it.

One thing though (about cha being as I aid - "steeped drink".
Let us follow Einstein and and put together several thought experiments.

Experiment one:
Person A who is a guest of Person B said in presence of others in Chinese
(I
am using the mix of English and Chinese so its easier for everyone to
follow):
" I want some CHA".
Person B asked "What kind?"
Person A : "I'd like some Chrisantemun flower CHA if possible"

If CHA HAS to be C. sinensis the person B would be surprised with the
request for Chrisantemun flower variety.
If CHA is a general "steeped drink", he will not be surprised.

My questions to you:
1. Will B be surprized? and if yes
2. How A should ask for a non-C. sinensis tea?

Cheers,

Alex.




"Livio Zanini" wrote in message
...

Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for
general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes
should
be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink".
Although
99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be
used.
Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English
"tea"
can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).
Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C.
sinensis" -
its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass
radical
(same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.


Just a few remarks: The character "cha2" seems to be the graphical
evolution
of "tu2", a character that was used in ancient times to indicate a kind
of
"bitter vegetable". "Cha2" in its present shape, came in to use only in
the
Tang dynasty (8th century), with the composition of "Chajing" by Lu Yu,
but
it seems that the character "tu2" was already pronunced "cha2" when
used
to
indicate C. sinensis in order to distinguis it from other "bitter
plants".
Regard to "ming2", ancient lexicographical dictionaries define it as
"buds
of tu2", which seems to confirm the identification of "tu2" with tea.
It would also be useful to remind that tea was boiled and not steeped
by
the
time the character "cha2" came in to use.
Apart its historical development, the Chinese character "cha2", as its
equivalent English word "tea", indicates basically three things: a
plant,
the dried leaves of this plant and the beverage prepared with these
leaves.
As a plant "cha2" indicates solely C. sinensis. If followed by the term
"shu3" (genus), it indicates the whole genus Camellia, out of which C.
sinensis is the only "drinkable" specie. As dry leaves and beverage it
indicates mainly the leaves of C. sinensis and the beverage prepared
with
them. It can also be used for the leaves of other plants used for
preparing
drinks, but always preceded by the name of the plant: e.g. juhua cha
(Chrisantemun flowers tea), xingren cha (almond porridge), kuding cha
(beverage made with Ilex kudingcha).