Gary Beckwith wrote:


wrote:

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:33:56 GMT, Gary Beckwith wrote:


you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand
for meat.

Which animals does it help, and how does it help them?


it helps the ones that don't have to be born into a life of torture.

"They" don't exist, so they can't be helped. Try again.



second, vegan is not just an eating habit. it is a way of life. many
vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to
organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA, that have many programs
that directly affect the welfare of animals.

Veg*nism itself does nothing to help animals, regardless of
what other things a person does.


you can twist the facts any way you want. most vegans have a lifestyle,
not just an eating habit. what's your point? veganism itself is

....is, what? Try to write complete sentences next time.

There is nothing intrinsic to "veganism" that means
people are going to be more likely to contribute to
animal welfare organizations. To the extent they
contribute to radical animal "rights" organizations,
they aren't helping any animals.

"vegans", in fact, are exceptionally self absorbed
people, and I contend they are likely to do far LESS to
help existing animals in any meaningful way.




now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals. That simply is NOT
true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones,
body parts removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways. Do you
know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day. Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.

Some of them have decent lives and some of them don't. If
you think they all have HORRIBLE lives then you're being no
more realistic about it than someone who thinks they all have
decent lives.


the VAST MAJORITY, i'd say well over 95% live horrible lives. did I
ever say all? again, what's the point? does it make a difference if
it's all, or most, or 95% or 50%?

You have done ZERO research to allow you legitimately
to reach any percentage. You're just shooting wildly
in the dark, but aiming numerically high.




your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?

From the life and death of a grass raised steer people can
get over 500 servings of beef. A few meals of tofu are likely
to involve more deaths than 500 meals from grass raised beef.
From the life and death of a grass raised dairy cow people can
get thousands of dairy servings. A few servings of rice milk are
likely to involve more deaths than a thousand servings of grass
raised cow milk.


you are full of it. you did not give any example. what deaths? there
simply are not any animal deaths involved in tofu production. get real.

No, you get real, liar. Animals living in soybean
fields are slaughtered wholesale in the course of
tilling the field and harvesting the crop. Most likely
there also is some kind of active pest control
practiced in the field. Once the crop is harvested, it
is stored somewhere before being distributed, and
vegetable storage facilities ACTIVELY exterminate
rodents. Those deaths COUNT against you, buddy.


the fact is that for every pound of beef produced, hundreds of pounds of
grain must be grown and hundreds of gallons of water are wasted.

As far as the beef most North Americans actually eat,
some animal-killing grains IS produced and used. Your
ratio is far off, indicating again you don't know what
you're talking about. The actual ratio of grain:beef
is about 6:1, not hundreds to one. As to the "waste"
of water, it isn't a waste; it is just an input. Rice
production "wastes" water by your argument, and in
fact, Californian rice farmers do indeed waste water
prodigiously, as the water is heavily subsidized, and
they have zero incentive to conserve it.

The entire earth could live off the grain and water that is wasted
to feed cattle.

Doubtful, but irrelevant anyway. The use of the grain
and the water are not "waste"; they are inputs to a
production process like any other.

get your facts straight. you are completely wrong on this
one.

You appear to be the one who is completely wrong, as
you don't know AT ALL what you're talking about.

do you know how many pounds of grain and gallons of water are
required to raise that head of beef that makes 500 servings? I guess
not because if you did you would not make that statement.

I don't have to guess, dummy; I KNOW that you don't
know what you're talking about when you say "hundreds"
of pounds of grain go into producing one pound of beef.
That is a lie.



you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify
your cruel habit. Virtually all your statements are completely false.

They are all true, as was the main point which is that there
are quite a few significan facts that you veg*ns do *not* want
people to consider. That's because you care more about
promoting veg*nism than you do about human influence on
animals.


I supposed you know exactly what I think and believe and what I want to
do.

In fact, dummy, when you declare yourself "vegan", you
DO INDEED reveal far more about your thoughts and
beliefs than you realize. Among other things, you
reveal that you are a rather radical leftist in your
political thinking. By revealing yourself to be
"vegan", I know EVERYTHING you think on political and
social issues. I've made this claim before in these
groups, and I have been proved right EVERY time.

your original statement is full of generalizations of what vegans
think and do.

Those generalizations are correct.

how would you know what I think? how do you know what i
care about?

Because "veganism" is a marker that is INTENDED to
reveal a lot more than merely what you eat. It is a
signal.

[snip remaining foam-at-the-mouth rant]