wrote:

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:33:56 GMT, Gary Beckwith wrote:

you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand
for meat.

Which animals does it help, and how does it help them?

it helps the ones that don't have to be born into a life of torture.


second, vegan is not just an eating habit. it is a way of life. many
vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to
organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA, that have many programs
that directly affect the welfare of animals.

Veg*nism itself does nothing to help animals, regardless of
what other things a person does.

you can twist the facts any way you want. most vegans have a lifestyle,
not just an eating habit. what's your point? veganism itself is



now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals. That simply is NOT
true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones,
body parts removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways. Do you
know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day. Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.

Some of them have decent lives and some of them don't. If
you think they all have HORRIBLE lives then you're being no
more realistic about it than someone who thinks they all have
decent lives.

the VAST MAJORITY, i'd say well over 95% live horrible lives. did I
ever say all? again, what's the point? does it make a difference if
it's all, or most, or 95% or 50%?



your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?

From the life and death of a grass raised steer people can
get over 500 servings of beef. A few meals of tofu are likely
to involve more deaths than 500 meals from grass raised beef.
From the life and death of a grass raised dairy cow people can
get thousands of dairy servings. A few servings of rice milk are
likely to involve more deaths than a thousand servings of grass
raised cow milk.

you are full of it. you did not give any example. what deaths? there
simply are not any animal deaths involved in tofu production. get real.

the fact is that for every pound of beef produced, hundreds of pounds of
grain must be grown and hundreds of gallons of water are wasted. The
entire earth could live off the grain and water that is wasted to feed
cattle. get your facts straight. you are completely wrong on this
one. do you know how many pounds of grain and gallons of water are
required to raise that head of beef that makes 500 servings? I guess
not because if you did you would not make that statement.


you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify
your cruel habit. Virtually all your statements are completely false.

They are all true, as was the main point which is that there
are quite a few significan facts that you veg*ns do *not* want
people to consider. That's because you care more about
promoting veg*nism than you do about human influence on
animals.

I supposed you know exactly what I think and believe and what I want to
do. your original statement is full of generalizations of what vegans
think and do. how would you know what I think? how do you know what i
care about?


Simply stated, your arguments are not true, your arguments are completey
full of holes and when given an opporutunity to respond you skirt the
issue. If you reallly know the facts, why don't you tell me where all
the animal deaths are that result from tofu production? Three times
you've said that more animals die from the raising of vegetables than
meat and never have you given a single example. You also seem to know
nothing about beef production and the resources that go into it. Your
arguments are hollow and unsubstantiated. You generalize a whole group
of people into thinking and feeling one certain way, which is completely
outrageous.

You should learn more about the facts, and perhaps take a class on
debating. In real debates, you don't make generalizations and you
substantiate your facts. You've done neither.

I don't even see why you're trying to make this case. go ahead and eat
meat if you want to. it's a personal choice. Why do you have to tell
other people they are wrong for making personal decisions that differ
from yours? Maybe you're feeling guilty for eating meat and you're
trying to justify your habit by making these statements?




If you do some research, read some books, you'll get the real facts.
But then I suppose you'll turn on your blinders and then start talking
about how vegetables feel just as much pain when they are killed so
there's no reason to be vegetarian. I've actually heard that one
before.

Look, if you want to eat meat, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping
you. Don't try to tell vegetarians that their lifestyle is wrong,
though. Especially if you are going to make your argument is completely
untrue.

Gary

wrote:

It appears that in order to think of things in the correct and ethically
superior way, some people believe we should disregard certain facts.
Overall it appears to me that veg*ns want to disregard more facts than
meat consumers, but maybe I'm wrong about that. The following are
lists of facts that meat eaters want to disregard, and that veg*ns want
to disregard. If you have more to add, please do so.

Facts that meat consumers want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are
killed so we can eat them.

Facts that veg*ns want to disregard:
1.The meat industry provides life for the billions of animals who are
killed so we can eat them.
2. Some of the animals raised for food have decent lives.
3. Veg*nism does nothing to provide decent lives for farm animals.
4. Veg*nism does nothing to help or provide more life for any animals.
5. People can contribute to decent lives for farm animals, but they
can't do it by being veg*n.
6. Veg*ns contribute to most of the same animal deaths that everyone
else does by their use of wood, paper, roads, buildings, electricity,
things that contain animal by-products, and the veggies they eat.
7. Some types of meat involve fewer animal deaths than some types of
veggies.
8. Some types of meat involve less animal suffering than some types of
veggies.