wrote:

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:33:56 GMT, Gary Beckwith wrote:


you are full of vegan baloney!

first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand
for meat.


Which animals does it help, and how does it help them?


second, vegan is not just an eating habit. it is a way of life. many
vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to
organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA, that have many programs
that directly affect the welfare of animals.


Veg*nism itself does nothing to help animals, regardless of
what other things a person does.

Meat eating does nothing to help animals, either,
regardless of what other things a person does.



now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
industry providing a good life for many animals. That simply is NOT
true. The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
lives. They are confined to very small areas, pumped with hormones,
body parts removed, and killed in very painful and inhumane ways. Do you
know how a beef cattle is killed? Look it up, it's disgusting. I know,
I live in farm country and I see it every day. Even dairy cows are
often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam. I drive by a
dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
outside in years.


Some of them have decent lives and some of them don't.

That's merely your opinion, and it is based on ignorance.

If you think they all have HORRIBLE lives then you're being no
more realistic about it than someone who thinks they all have
decent lives.

If one thinks that it is horrible to kill an animal for
human consumption, then they indeed all have horrible
lives.



your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
crop that kills more animals than meat?


From the life and death of a grass raised steer people can
get over 500 servings of beef.

You are a massive hypocrite. You do not eat grass-fed
beef. You do not make any effort at all to choose meat
from sources that treated animals better than the
average for their industries. You buy whatever beef,
chicken, pork and other that Piggly Wiggly has in
shrink-wrapped packages. You are not an ethical meat
eater.

A few meals of tofu are likely
to involve more deaths than 500 meals from grass raised beef.

You have no support for that claim. It's idle,
ignorant speculation.

From the life and death of a grass raised dairy cow people can
get thousands of dairy servings. A few servings of rice milk are
likely to involve more deaths than a thousand servings of grass
raised cow milk.


you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".

It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify
your cruel habit. Virtually all your statements are completely false.


They are all true,

One of them is completely insignificant: the one about
the meat and dairy industries "providing life" for farm
animals.

as was the main point which is that there
are quite a few significan facts that you veg*ns do *not* want
people to consider.

Vegans not giving any consideration to this stupid
"providing life" argument is not out of a fear of what
might be discovered. It is based on a full-knowledge
awareness that there is nothing to consider.